General Discussion
I think Reform are going to get alot more votes than expected, especially now they are taking votes from Labour.
The Reform UK Party has nothing to do with National Front. Reform are the party of commonsense. I'll be voting for them tomorrow.
Blimey if Reform are the NF then Labour must be Hamas, the Conservatives ISIS and Lib Dems , a version of Humpty Dumpty Party and South Devon lot the Monster Raving Looney Party. Its amazing how the looney left think that shouting nazi and racist at anybody they don't agree with makes them right. It's what amazes me when people say they are voting Labour, a party that doesn't even except the difference between a man and a woman. If Labour win it will make little difference to me, but there will be alot of middle class Labour luvvies that will suddenly be alot worse off in the pocket. The one thing you can guarantee, after 5 disastrous years under Labour , with many reluctant to vote Tory again , Reform will probably grow stronger just like similar parties across the whole of the EU.
I also forgot to say that the far Left Workers Party will also do alot better than opinion polls are showing. I wonder if that will be met with Workers Party = Stalin/Lenin responsible for millions of deaths.
Like you say Steve , anybody they don't agree with gets labelled racist or far right. Yet they are the ones that try to get anything or anybody they don't agree with banned, sacked, cancelled or closed down. They are the real nazis, bigots, anti semites . Luckily the people are awakening in the UK just as they are across the EU.
If Reform UK isn't far-right where is it on the political spectrum? Nothing to do with labels.
Reform and UKIP before have always been further to the right than the Tories and even the Tory right wing. If the establishment and it's parties were so leftist how come the media has always given far more coverage to Farage than any leftist party of a comparable size. Farage as Leader of UKIP and now Reform has always gotten more air-time than the Greens who have had 1 MP for years now, so it's hard to argue we've got a leftist state run media or a leftist establishment. He gets more media coverage than the SNP and Lib Dems despite never having had any MPs in Westmisnter. If the establishment was truly leftist then the media, Tories and Blairites wouldn't have had such an issue with Corbyn would it? And how much media coverage does George Galloway and the Workers Party of Britain get compared to Farage? Next to nothing, most people won't even know about him and his party, so it hardly points to a leftist establishment and media,
I agree, I can't see the next 5 years under Labour being any better than under the Tories, and maybe Reform will grow stronger. I imagine they'll merge with the right wing of the Tory party and other Tories will join Labour or the Lib Dems. But that is just the right re-forming into new factions. There is no left in UK politics, just the centre-right appropriating some leftist language to appear democratic, whilst becoming increasingly authoritarian and controlling and the re-emergence of the far-right.
People in the UK and across Europe are fed up with neoliberal politics. Le Pen may win power but Farage is an opportunist and him and Reform UK are not going to challenge the status quo, this year or in 2029.
I thought Reform UK supporters accepted they're on the far-right? I didn't realize this came across as in insult. The party does attract voters and supporters on the far-right.
And on racism Farage dropped three candidates a few days ago over the racism row involving activists, and wasn't there homophobic and islamophobic language used too? Or was it all a set-up by Channel 4? A Conspiracy? These 'labels' don't just come from nowhere. Now it's reported that Farage says his Reform UK party might be losing support because too many of his candidates have said “stupid things”. I'd interpret that as racist, sexist, islamophobic and homophobic things and I've heard it from Reform activists locally as well who come across as thugs. Some people are reminded of the National Front or the BNP and Reform is having to react to things like a candidate's 2010 comments when he urged people to join the BNP.
So if Reform UK supporters do want to win the 2029 election, as Farage states, they'll have to try harder to convince people that they're not racist, islamophobes on the far/extreme right, etc, instead of just banging on about Labour luvvies, Stalin, Humpty Dumpty, and the non-existent left. Then again I tried to read the illegible rubbish that Chris Hilditch delivered early in the election, so no wonder debating is just left to Farage. Farage probably thinks he'd do far better if party activists were muted for the entire election campaign and if he could somehow ban supporters from commenting on social media and sites like this.
The UK has had immigration since 1800s, it's more assimilated than other European countries and it's more accepting of difference from religion to LGBTQ rights than in previous generations. More people are accepting of mental health conditions, learning disabilities and speak out against disablism, etc. None of that will just unravel and Reform UK isn't going to seize power in another 5 years. Yes immigration does need to be addressed, but most people in this country aren't going to be turned by a party which undoubtedly has a problem with racism within its party and among its support base. The majority of people wouldn't find the You Tube video 'We're All Far right Now' funny, because its aimed at people who feel entitled to discriminate against whoever they wish and who then get triggered when they're seen as on the far right or racist, bigoted, etc and who the hell has even heard of Dominic Frisby? Seems a bit RW niche.
Reform have said they are a centre-right party. The mainstream media (BBC, ITV, Sky, Channel 4, Guardian, etc.) trys to portray anyone that doesn't agree with their left-wing politics as far right and racist.
The other parties have moved too far to the left, which is why many feel they have no choice but to vote Reform.
I think you will find Labour and The Greens have had far more problems with Racism and Anti semitism than Reform. 3 candidates in a party that very hastily had to get candidates together for the election and a press that has spent weeks digging into the past of every one of them. The Greens have 16 candidates under investigation yet decided to do nothing about it. Labour also have the same problem but many of its candidates have been around for years. As for the comparison with France , most political analysts say that Le Pens party are actually more left leaning than right due to its policies. Being anti immigration doesn't mean a party is right wing. The Communist Party were originally anti immigration and many left wing parties are anti immigration and anti EU. Being labelled by Labour supporters racist or far right for thinking anything different to them is the norm nowadays, because they don't have answers to the problems in front of them. Teignbridge Rotten Borough , because you have said immigration does need addressing, now makes you far right and racist in the eyes of Labour . You have now proved the point. Thank you.
If anyone honestly believes the left dominates mainstream politics, then explain what exactly is so left wing about the Tories, Labour and the Lib Dems. It's all very well saying they're left over and over without substantiating it. The BBC is largely run by ex Oxford and Cambridge Uni Tories, hardly left wing. Sky is owned by Murdoch, he's well on the right.
The Tory party has problems with racism, islamophobia in particular. Corbyn's stance was pro-Palestine and critical of the state of Israel. given geo-politics the Tories exploited this and the media turned it into an anti-semitism row, forcing Starmer's New New Labour back to the centre-right, to appease the establishment.
I can write that immigration needs addressing and I'm no racist and definitely not on the far-right.
Reform UK struggles to do so because the party does attract support from people on the far right of UK politics. So what about the canfdidate who stood down because of comments made in 2010 endorsing the far-right BNP and what about the Reform activists recent racist, islamophobic comments? It doesn't sound like the press had to dig very deep does it, they just had to point a camera at people openly expressing their hatred. I suppose you'll tell me that was a leftist set-up.
It doesn't really matter what Reform UK supporters tell us the party is or isn't. It's how it is perceived by the wider population and that's out of Farage's hands. You don't have to read the press or watch mainstream TV, Reform UK activists told a Scottish bloke where to go in Newton abbot and told him 'Scotland belongs to us', your party hardly endears itself to others because it attracts some of the very worst of society.
@Knighton Not heard of the 16 Green candidates under investigation for racism, could you provide a link? I've read reporst about three of their candidates regarding anti-Israel/anti-semitic comments. Whatever your view on these comments Green party candidates and supporters aren't hurling verbal abuse at members of the public based on their ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation. I'm not suggesting other parties don't have issues, but Reform UK is in a league of its own when it comes to being associated with racism and the far-right.
The left dominate mainstream media, which is why all you hear about is how far right and racist everyone they disagree with is.
Tories, Labour and Lib Dems all support the same left wing policies.
@Steve, you're just telling me what you believe without anything to substantiate your claims. It goes around in circles. If the left dominate the media Galloway would have the exposure Farage has and Corbyn would still be leader of Labour. It's only left to someone who's positioned pretty far to the right. Farage and UKIP/Reform wouldn't have stood aside in two elections for the Tories to implement left wing policies either.
UKIP/Reform stood aside for the Tories to implement conservative policies, but the Tories never did. That's why they aren't stepping aside this time.
Galloway is not getting as much abuse from the left-wing media as Farage, no.
@Steve okay so you're claiming the Tories implemented what? left wing socialist policies? Right oh.
I can see you're convinced the media is left-wing. No point discussing anything further, let's agree to disagree.
They are socialist policies. The highest immigration ever, the largest natonal debt ever, the most money printing ever, the highest inflation and currency devalutation since the 70s, highest handouts ever, massive numbers on welfare and not working, highest taxes in decades ...
You would think Jeremy Corbyn had been in power these last 5 years lol.
The largest national debt ever because of a lack of regulation in the banking sector and gambling with public money. And who benefis? The private sector. That's who holds the UK debt, corporations, private investments, asset management firms,, private individuals. etc. So your telling me capitalist/neoliberal organizations have benefitted from socialist policies and socialist government? Do you seriously think Corbyn would have carried on Thatcherite and Blairite neoliberal policies that kept corporation tax low? Privatization of utlities, healthcare, etc has nothing to do with socialism. You're describing neoliberalist economic policy, latter day capitalism not socialism.
Todays Sun and Telegraph urge people to vote Labour and you say the mainstream media is right wing. Google Green candidates facing investigation for racism and anti semitism and you will find it in all newspapers and news stations. As for blaming the press for an anti semitism agenda, that s like blaming the press for using the race card on the right. As we are all racists for mentioning immigration, I'm afraid that also means you are according to your reckoning. Sorry but a person on the left speaking about it is no different from one in the centre or on the right. You said exactly the same that immigration needs looking at.
@Knighton Labour is now a centre right party so that explains why the right wing medi are getting behind Starmer. I found the article referring to the 3 Greens and accepted that most parties have issues relating to discrimination, but Refrom UK seems to have far more skeletons in their closet. You mentioned 16 Greens, I'd take a look if you can provide a link. Not sure I understand your point about the pressa nd anti-semitsism. I do agree with you that immigration needs to be discussed without resorting to racism, but so does the Labour shortage filled by immigrant workers and the reasons behind people leaving their countries to seek employmnet in the UK and that requires us to look at geo-politics and the richer global north exploiting the poorer global south, western european powersand the imbalance with former eastern bloc states and the role of big busiiess profiteering for continued warfare around the globe.
@Steve I don't claim that neoliberalism is working, it's basically neofeudalism and neo-colonialism. Having nations indebted by trillions is advantageous to powerful elements seeking to exert further control over nation states, we've seen it with the World bank, IMF etc in Africa, Latin America, etc, This country sold out in the '70s when it went bankrupt.
UK healthcare is being privatized, the Tories are all for shrinking the welfare state. Dentistry is now prvate, many people revert to private healthcare because the NHS is at breaking point. No doubt Reform UK supporters will point to immigration as one reason, but an ageing population which is living longer and a population hit by an obestity pandemic and a mental health crisis and unhealthy lifestyles are all factors too, so is corruption such asthe PPE scandal during covid and the fact corporations and private individuals aren't paying tax here or are paying less due to corporation tax, overseas tax havens, etc.
To be fair to both of you at least you accept that this country has deeply engrained structural issues, which the two main parties and the Lib Dems would never admit. That is why right wing populist Frage and Reform UK are likely to do well and also why Corbyn a left-wing populist gained some traction, amongst what remains of the left.
Not sure where you found the article regarding 3 Greens . All the articles mention 20 Greens , 4 immediately stood down and 16 remain under investigation. The Times , Guardian, Spectator , ITV , BBC are the 1st 5 articles . Haven't found a single story mentioning 3. Unless you mean the 3 local councillors kicked out the party for anti semitism, for calling all Jews Nazis.
@Teign, I agree about powerful elements seeking to exert further control over nation states. That was why we voted out of the EU. Hopefully, we've won that battle but who knows.
@Knighton. okay I'll take a deeper dive.
@Steve Yes I know the UKIP/Reform rationale regarding leaving the EU. Leftists like Corbyn wanted out of the EU because it was seen as a neoliberal project superceding nation states. I just don't believe the UK has the clout to go it alone, not when so much trade is done with our closest geographical neighbours across the Channel, we're stuck between the US superpower and the Tories favouring closer trans-atlantic ties under the Atlantic Bridge project or accepting the terms of the EU which is set up to compete with the US, Russia, China, etc. The UK is still in a post-colonial hangover, Great Britain isn't that great, it's just what's left over of an Anglo-Norman empire that got called 'British' and it'll likely disintegrate when Irish unification and Scottish Independence occurs. So reform Uk's Britishness just sounds the same as the establishment Britishness promoted by Tories, Labour and Lib Dems which overwhelmingly benefits the centre, wealthy elites and their supporters in the city of London and the Home Counties. Farage being private school educated and a commodities trader doesn't really seem like a break from the status quo at all.
And on your take of the PPE scandal; you seem to believe the right is immune to corruption and tyranny. I really can't be bothered replying to you if you're so convinced the Tories have been running a socialist republic for the last 14 years. I suppose you think Thatcher was a marxist?
@Paul Reform UK can write anything on their manifesto, same for the Lib dems, they're not going to get into government so they won't have to put any of it into action.
The funding is based on scraping net zero, whereas I do think the Green New Deal is not about climater change mitigation and ecological sustainability I don't agree with the argue prevalent on the right that human induced climate change is a hoax. I've asked this before, if some of you really believe it's a hoax, then who is behind it? If it is a massive conspiracy it would require a level of co-operation on a planetary scale never seen in the entirety of recorded human history. And in any case wouldn't some rogue state, hacker or Julian Assange figure have exposed it by now? It's just too far fetched. Who's behind it A global network of Socialists? The Illuminati? The Freemasons?
@Steve if you accepted the right were not immune to tyranny and corruption you'd see the Tory PPE scandal for what it is, right wing corruption unrelated to socialism.
I'm not defending socialism by the way, but you seem to think any form of government that is 'big' is automatically socialist. Any form of government that attempts to control and exert power over the people as opposed to serving the will of the people would involve a greater number of state run ministries, departments, divisions, etc co-ordinated from the centre, whether on the left or right.
There's nothing socialist about the last 14 years of Conservatism, or the 13 years of New Labour or the 18 years of thatcherism before that.
Goods aren't owned or distributed collectively, there's not the level of central planning of the economy you'd find in an eastern block country prior to the fall of the iron cutain, a Soviet Republic. I don't see the Tories, Labour, The Lib dems, SNP or anyone else working toward the goal of radically reconstructed, classless society and the redistribution of land and wealth from the aristocracy, monarchy, oligarchs, bouregoisie, etc doesn't look likely either. If Britain was truly socialist we wouldn't have had any devolution at all as autonomy doesn't fit the model of state run, centralized socialism. Unless you belive the welsh Assembly, the Scottish Government and the Northern Irish Assemblies are simply Soviets of the central authority in Westminster? Are the SinnFein Abstenteists in on the big socialist conspiracy as well then?
How do you define socialism exactly?
What you are describing is communism rather than socialism, and we haven't reached that stage yet.
Socialism is, for example, where the government takes more of your income from you than it needs to for the necessary functioning of government.
The claimed purpose is usually to fund social programs or to redistribute wealth, but we all know that it never does this and usually causes more problems than it solves.
Socialism is also about government encroachment on other aspects of our lives.
We have been fighting a government that attempts to control and exert power over the people as opposed to serving the will of the people since the Brexit vote. They will probably be kicked out tomorrow only to be replaced by another that will behave the same.
The two are related. I assumed you were using the two interchangeably as anything on the left, others have referred to Stalin and Lenin on this thread.
It's hardly socialism in the UK; Individuals own personal property unlike communism where nobody owns property or personal assets. But we don't live in a socialist nation where all industrial and production capacity is communally owned and managed by a democratically elected government. Tell me what is communally owned, aren't you ignoring the private sector? Privatization, foreign multi-nationals?
Production in the UK is nothing to do with meeting individual and societal needs and distributed according to individual ability and contribution. If that were the case we wouldn't have corporate elites and shareholders making vast profits. We'd most likely be a socialist republic instead of a monarchy if that were the case. The gulf between rich and poor is widening, under socialist society the oppposite should occur in theory, of course in practice power corrupts, but then it can't be called socialism or anything else other than tyranical.
How do you define socialism? Why not offer your own definition and point to specific examples of socialist policy in UK politics. Encroaching on which other aspects of our lives? Communism basically abolished religion, socialism doesn't.
Brexit happened, the referendum vote never indicated how or what it would look like. And it was 52/48%, that's a slight majority, it's not overwhelmingly the will of the people, but just over half.
The government has been increasingly controlling and exerting power over the people since before Brexit, look at the 2010 riots, widespread state surveillance, Thatcher vs the trade unions, etc. Then again I don't believe we've ever had real democracy in this country in any case.
I just see the centralized authoritarian establishment as serving the few and not acting in the interests of the many.
Most countries today operate some form of socialism. The NHS, welfare state and state education are socialist programs.
Some, like Argentina, have taken it to extremes and are now trying to dig themselves out and undo the damage.
Socialism doesn't create an equal society. It create a society where most people are poor except for a political elite.
I'm not saying privatisation has been a success in the UK either because it has been mostly a disaster. Once you've gone down the path of socialism, it is hard to come back.
@TRB
"When scotish independence and irish reunification" occur?
Can i borrow uour crystal ball
@1263 You don't need a crystal ball. despite the loss of 30 odd seats the SNP were not that far behind Labour in terms of vote share. This election was about the cost of living crisis and austerity, Scottish independence isn't going to disappear, the Brexit vote was the beginning of the end of the union. The Eu/Brexit bordr issue between Northern Ireland and the Republic and issues in governance at Stormont over recent years and failing public services in NI, coupled with the rise of Sinn Fein on both sides of the border all point to the inevitable; Irish re-unification. Then there are demographic shifts toward the Catholic/Irish population which means it will happen. Labour is unlikely to change anything significantly to prevent the UK of GB and NI fragmenting into its constuent parts and Irish unification. I know that's difficult for British Nationalists to accept, but it's simply an extension of the end of empire. If I were Scottish or Northern Irish I would take the opportunity to sever links with Westminster.
@trb
Utter rubbish the electroate in scotland gave the snp a bloody nose because of the incompetence of the goverment in health, education, fraud, wee nippe sweetie allegations, calmac shipbuilding fiasco and total mismanagement and pushing the independence point of view. As swinney the leader of the snp said that if a certain number of scots mps were returned it would be a validation of continiuning the push to independence.You saw the reply to that. The MAJORITY of scots voted to say part of the UK although the independence party got most of the publicity because they shouted the loudest.
In ireland just because the catholic population is now more than the protestants it does not mean they would vote for reunification , many want to remain in the uk having no support for the murdering sinn fein/ ira cabal. Even many southern irish voters dont want the north with all the secterian issues , not to mention the unionists. You are guilty of beleiving all the propaganda put out by the republicans. A great correlation is the german dr gobbels "if you tell a lie often enough people will believe it."
.
@1263 I'm referring to vote share, not the number of seats lost to Labour. And I'm not disagreeing with you that the SNP in government have issues to overcome and they were unlikey to do well in this GE, but another independence referendum will happen. That referendum will differ from the last in that those campaigning against independence won't be able to use the EU argument for staying in the union once again.
Labour did well in Scotland under the first past-the-post system because voters in Scotland wanted the Tories out, the same for the rest of the UK. Their vote share over the SNP is not huge, the same as their vote share in England and Wales over the Tories, it's just distorted by the first-past-the-post system which has given them so many seats. It's neither democratic or representative.
On Ireland yoiu could turn around everything you wrote and take the Irish perspective, many of whom would want to leave the UK because of murders committed by the British government in the service of her majesty and loyalist paramilitaries. It depends if you're able to see both sides of a confict or simply one side. For many Irish people Northern Ireland is one of the last remaining British colonies, for many Ulster Scots it is their home, atrocities occurred on both sides and yes some people in the Republic (FYI there's no such country as Southern Ireland, that would be the Province of Munster) may want their government to focus on other issues rather than unification with Northern Ireland, but others do want to see a united Ireland. In England, Scotland and Wales there are people who believe that a British identity actually exists and means something and want to see NI remain as part of the UK. There are also people in these 3 countries who believe that Ireland should be reunified and that it is simply an extension of the end of british imperialism, then there are others who aren't interested or think the question should be decided by democratic referendum by the people who live in NI.
I'm not guilty of anything and I'm not answerable to the likes of you.
And the British government isn't guilty of propaganda? The first concentration camps appeared under British imperial rule. Churchill may have been an impressive war leader but he also oversaw genocide. It's a shame people who consider themselves British (whatever that means these days) can't acknowledge negative aspects of their own history.
the troubles in NI didn't just randomly occur for no good reason. ever heard of the Potato famine? The Boyne? The English Pale?
Around 9 million people living in the UK have Irish relatives or ancestry, many people who are politically known as British citizens but identify is English, Welsh, Scottish or Anglo-Irish, Irish-Scottish, etc or any other cultrural mix such as Jamaican English, Nigerian-English, etc and who believe in peaceful, democratic process can objectively see the cause of Irish reunification as a valid one, given the importance of self-determination and the will of the people. The issue of Irish reunification or NI or Scotland leaving the union shouldn't ultimately be decided by people living in Devon or England as a whole with the largest population of the 4 nations or politicians that do not represent Ni and Scotland.
Here is the rub, the irish love to say it was not a famine but genocide which means the destruction of an entire group/ race. For it to be genocide it would have to mean only catholics starved in the famine. Very little coverage is given to the role of the catholic church in the famine and of british efforts to help. The irish love to keep open a grudge backed by the church and republicans. As too the british not acknowledging negative aspects consider windrush, mau mau, the queen speech in republic of ireland, the british efforts to end slavery in the world etc etc.
As for colonisim and imperlism we shoud seek apologies from the romans, angles and saxons normans scots etc, your agrument does not stack up....
Am i far wrong thinking mr malones political slant leans to republican socialism?
@1263 That's a sweeping generalisation. How do you know what all the Irish 'love to say'? Your definition of genocide is incorrect, it can be destruction of a whole or part of a group or ethnicity. By your definition the Nazi's Final Solutrion and the Holocaust isn't genocide then? Same for what's happening in Gaza.
I wasn't actually referring to genocide in Ireland in any case. I was referring to Churchill and the Bengal Famine where over 4 million Bengalis starved to death because he decided to divert food to British soldiers and other countries in Europe in 1943. So while he is seen a champion of democracy and freedom here in the UK, many in India see him as one of the worst genocidal dictators of the last century, along with Hitler and Stalin. So it depends on perspective and the narrative pushed in the society/system in which we live in how historical events are interpreted.
On the Potato Famine or Great Hunger the Whig government of the day did next to nothing to alleviate the famine, seeing the Irish as little more than scum. The government in Westminster continued to export large amounts of food from Ireland and access to the workhouse was denied by anyone with a small holding of more than a quarter acre, so it was a land grab too. Give up what little land you own and subsisted on for generations or starve, it removed conquered and subjugated peoples from their land, same as the Highland clearances and the Enclosures Act and repeated across other colonies. Whatever your thoughts on the famine nobody can deny that this period led to increased tensions with the British government, the rise of anti-British feeling, fuelling Irish nationalism, republicanism and also sectarianism. There are direct parallels between the Great Hunger and the Bengal Famine and I would categorize the former as genocide as well.
It's irrelevant what you or I think. I'm not an Irish citizen or resident in NI. I didn't actually bring up the troubles in relation to NI and Irish unification - you did. I'd hope people living on the island of Ireland can decide their own future via peaceful and democratic means learning from the past without repeating thye same old mistakes.
I don't know what you refer to when my write my 'argument does not stack up'? Which argument? I never mentioned I or anyone else for that matter sought apologies for colonialism and imperialism from the British or any other power. You have gone of on a tangeant and seem to be having your own dialogue. I'm happy to respond if you keep the discussion on track and civil, rather than in reference to what you think you read or whatever's in your head at the time.
I'm not an Irish citizen or a citizen of NI, but I can at least see that a country or people on the receiving end of colonial and imperial oppresssion will feel aggrieved and in will have in impact on their sciety, culture and politics.
I don't really understand why you're so emotionally invested in defending the British Empire and the modern British state, unless you fought as soldier in NI or you're an Ulster Scot or with familial ties to that community in NI. Of course you may tell me you're a staunch British patriot, but I don't really understand why someone in Devon is so bothered about what happens across the Irish sea on an island most people down here haven't visited or ever will.
I don't know who you're referring to re: Mr Malone, why don't you ask him? And in any case so what? It's no crime to be a Republican or a Socialist.
Given the mass immigration that occurred during and following the Potato Famine of Irish people to the UK and elsewhere that continues to this day, is it beyond your comprehension that some people born in th UK and who are British Citizens may not blindly conform to notions of Britishness, (whatever that means) and recognize that they are culturally English but with Irish roots for example? The same can be applied to people who are both English and of Bengali descent or from wherever. If Britishness is just a concept founded on empire, a people should be able to choose whther they want to remain part of or not. I don't identify as British, I'm culturally English with some Irish ancestry and I'm proud of both sides. In any case a person can believe in the principles of democracy and self-determination without having any links to the Republic of Ireland and NI and they can be critical of their government in Westminster, in fact democracy depends on the population holding their representatives to account.
@trb
"Another scottish referendum will happen" ? with less than double figures of SNPs I think you are very wrong there and you just happen to say that without any shred of evidence whatever.
Why am i emotive of the British state ? Because i am proud to be british, failings and all, and fed up with the narrative of how britain is so bad due to issues that happened hundreds of years ago and which would have to be taken into context of the times lived in.
No i did not bring up the troubles in NI you did,by stating irish unification was on the cards i only pointed out the reasons why it would not be on the cards.
As for colonism and imperilism you fail to mention any plus points but i agree there were dark periods, but consider , the imposition of the rule of law, the building of infrastructure, english being taught a common language, the outlawing of the practice of sutee the list goes on but you pick out one episode to try and highlight how bad britain is. There will always be famines in the world.Again you fail to mention the role of the catholic churchs role in the famine and the help given by Queen victoria to try and allevaite the suffering again using a broad canvass to highlight defeciences of the uk.
Genocide in gaza - are the IDF killing every non jewish person in gaza? no,so its not genocide then is it. They are trying to limit casualties but obviously there will be innocent people killed in this action, and if your calling it genocide probably based on the numbers that HAMAs release ( dont you think they have a polirical reason for inflating casulties ?)again you are falling into the propaganda trap .What about the 1000 jews murdered in cold blood by the Hamas is that not genocide or does there have to be a specific number bedore you can call it genocide,?
@1263 On the Scottish referendum I am entitled to my opinion and you yours. The vote share in Scotland and the change in circumstances post Brexit anre reason enough to posit that Scottish independence isn't dead in the water.
If you're proud of being British then good for you, I guesssed as much and don't have an issue with that, even I differ in my view of British identity. I can stay objective and it's not woth getting emotional about.
You're incorrect, just because i referred to Irish unification it did not require any discussion on the troubles, many people in NI and the Republic would prefer to shift the narrative away from that period. You brought the troubles up, I suggest you re-read the thread.
You mentioned atrocities perpetrated by the Republican/IRA when you brought up the troubles, you did not refer to atrocities committed by the British and loyaliost paramilitaries in what was a dirty war. I pointed this out for balance, something you cannot offer being biased. Again go back and re-read the thread, maybe try paying closer attention. It's getting tiresome having to correct you.
If you want to discuss the positives of British imperialism and whether they outweigh the negatives such as the Bengal Famine, the Great Hunger, etc then maybe someone else will engage in that discussion. However I'm not interested. In any case Irish unification does not depend on what you or other proud Brits living in Devon or anywhere else in England think of Ireland today, Irish history and how you perceive your own country's history if you see your country as Britain as opposed to England. It depends on how people living in NI and the Republic perceive unification and what impact that'll have on their communities today. You may see English being the lingua franca as a positive, Irish people may mourn the loss of their own language and cultural identity. The Catholic Church, for any good it did during the famine can be viewed at other times as complicit with the state, whether the British state or that of the newly formed Republic and given the scandals, abuse and paedophilia it is little wonder Catholicism is in decline in Ireland and being openly held to account. Any attempts by the Irish clergy to help their fellow countrymen and woman should of course be recognised, but credit cannot be given to the British state when it's basically Irish people helping compatriots in need. And in any case the Catholic Church in Ireland is not a British institution, Protestant Britain would have preffered all Ireland were Protestant from the Tudors and Cromwell onwards. We're discussing the British government, so your point about the Catholic Church is irrelevant.
In the famine the Whig government simply had to stop food exports from Ireland to feed the starving, it didn't - any other attempts to alleviate suffering were futile and tokenistic. Have you ever had this discussion with an Irish person? I'd love to witness it.
Hamas and terrorism in the Middle East didn't just occur for no reason, it's related to westerm imperialism. Both sides are guilty of atrocities. I'm not alone in calling Israel's offensive in Gaza genocide. And yes Hamas has called for the annihalation of the Jews, they just lack the means of a state backed by Western powers like ours who are complicit. The creation of Israel was a mistake, leading Rabbis stated this at the time and continue to do so around the world.
Yoiu didn't answer my question. Who are you refrring to by Mr Malone? Not the SDA candidate? Are you stil sore about his effing and jeffing on his video? Is that why your tone changed?
No,my tone has not changed to refer back i have no issues if the SDA candidate has republican or socialist affilations the fact of the matter is you deferred the question by saying ask him. As the mouthpiece on this forum for the sda i find it inconceivalbe a) that you do not know or b) dont want to say Anyone standing for public office shoudl state all political affilations for transparency and to remove the whiff of SWP or other left wing organisations. If he has none then why not say so to the question.
On another matter you say you do not identify as British so i hope if you have a passport you have handed it back as it says you are a British citizen otherwise you are hipocritcal. Only in Your head do you identify as english not British. Every country in the world sees you as Brtish.....try shouting "im not british" at passport countrol and see how you get on. Its a relevation but your british first then english second ,........in other word your british just like me.
"the fact of the matter is you deferred the question by saying ask him." And you have the cheek to refer to my comments as utter rubbish. No matter. you're referring to Liam Mullone, no Malone.
In any case I think Mullone is actually his stage name or similar. This below would've been on your polling card, it's from the TDC website.
Parker isn't a very Irish sounding name is it? I don't know if he has any association with Ireland republicanism or Socialism. And why would I have any issue with transparency relating to those standing for public office.
If you suspect a 'whiff of SWP' or left wing organisatiuons then why don't you contact him yourself and if you do maybe you'd be kind enough to share your findings on here. while you're at it you could ask him about his swearing, his video and his autism, or do you think autism is a left wing conspiracy too.
I doubt you've already contacted him about anything or have any intention of doing so, you'll just vent your anger on dawlish.com and direct it at me.
Anyone born in the UK and who wishes to travel outside of the UK and Ireland has little choice with a GB passport. There's nothing hypocritical about being a citizen of a country and identifying as English rather than British, it's the same as a Cornish person or Welsh person not identifying with their country and not the political union of the UK of GB. It's the same as a Spanish passport holder from Bilbao who identifies as Basque of someone from Girona identifying as Catalan.
You see things in very simplistic terms.
And maybe someone will identify me as British based on my passport and English based on my accent, Americans may refer to a British accent but there is no such thing. I don't want to identify as British because I am anti-imperialist. I don't expect you to like it. Nor would I imagine you'd be so brave as to talk down to a person and call them a hypocrite in person, different story behind your screen, isn't it?
My British citizenship is merely a political reference, it's up to me how I define myself cultually and ethnically.
You have quite a dictatorial way of engaging in discussion, you and I may both be British citizens but I'm nothing like you.
Yep, not answering the political affilation question again .
I did not say YOU have a problem with transparency, its the voters who want to know and if you cant understanding that theres nothing i can do about it.
"Autism is a left wing conspirancy " ? Your losing creditabilty and a bit of a slur on people who have autism.
I am not venting anger at you personally just trying to get to the facts but you seem to reply either with a long winded reply in which the main questions are not addressed. There is nothing personal in it but you seem to obfiscate all the time.
No, everyone will identify you as british because thats what it says on your passport...you can identify as a teapot if you wish but border control will say your a british teapot not an english one.
Anti_ Imperialist - those days are long gone and again you would not acknowledge the good imperialism and colonism achieved only the dark epidodes.
Hypocritic ? I am not british but will use a british passport.
When in doubt revert the woke agenda " i will define myself culturally and ethically.
Yes we have a different way of discussion in knowing when i am fed bullshit
@1263 What political affiliation question are you asking me? I can't speak for Liam Mullone. Just because I voted for the SDA on July 4th and advocated for them on this site during the election period it doesn't make me their official mouthpiece. I doubt Cllr predominantlt based in the Newton area even know about this website.
Why don't you use some initiative and contact Liam Mullone yourself? Go on, it won't be as scary as you think. I've met him a few times and he's a decent bloke. If you want the facts go to the source, it's not rocket science. You're convinved I'm a SDA Cllr aren't you? It's not a political party, it's an alliance of independents so there is no membership. Even if I was a SDA cllr what's the issue? I'm not. I'm just someone who voted for them in the General Election as all the mainstream parties are rotten to the core. The election is over. The Reform vote got Wrigley elected and he'll be worse than Morris.
That's no slur against autistic people, get a grip pal.
I can handle some foreign passport officer or hotel receptionist thinking I'm British, may people abroad can't ditinguish between English, Welsh, Scots, etc anyway. Honestly it's not a problem, I can handle it, if anything it is sometimes a conversation start where they learn something about me and my culture and I theirs. I have travelled quite a bit, you're not pointing out anything new.
You have you're own self-perception concerning how you come across, I have my own perception of you. It seems personal to me. I get that you're a passionate British patriot. I'd hope to have a decent discussion wuth you, but I don't eed you telling me what I'm guilty of, whether you think I'm a hypocrite or writing utter rubbish. It's uncalled for and unnecessary. Let's leave it there.
You have your views of imperialist days being over, I have my views on it and neo-colonialism. Again let's leave it there. There's little point continuing this discussion.
I've already addressed your passport/hypocrite viewpoint. I'm not going to repeat myself. I don't expect you to agree. Again let's leave it there.
Now you're saying I'm 'woke' and saying what I'm ffeeding you 'BS'? You can't keep it civil can you? Why not take a lie down or try some breathing exercises if they're not too woke or snowflake for you?
Let's close this thread, it's not in anyone's interset to continue it.
Yes, lets leave it there as i am getting no response to my questions and yes i will lie down and do some breathing exercises after all these posts and not getting a straight answer it has exhausted me.
@1263 I've just told you about my affiliation with the SDA. It's not my problem if you don't accept that. Other than that contact Liam Mullone for your other questions.
I don't know you from Adam, you seem obsessed with finding out whether I'm part of the SDA opr whether the SDA is in factan Irish Replublican or Socialist cell operating out of S. Devon? If I were a SDA Cllr or election agent I'd be very wary of anyone so persistent and such zealous people in general, given how ploarized and divided society has become, the mental health pandemnic and incidents such as the Jo Cox case.
I thought you said leave it there, at no point did i ask if you were a sda councillor or election agent - please provide proof that i asked that. Yes you should be wary as i dig for the truth which you fail to answer. As is your way throw in mental health issues and jo cox case to muddy the waters. Basically you just dont like answering awkard questions hence the reason you want to leave it there.
@1263 Not directly, but that's what it feels like your angling for? You thought I ewas Liam Mullone didn't you?
Okay just ask away if you like.
I'm not wary of you digging for the truth as I've been truthful. Have you ever considered that you might be overly suspicious and mistrusting of others, you might not accept the truth even when confronted with it.
Maybe that comment relating to Cox and merntal health did irk you, but in truth I would be concerned about meeting you in person.
"Might not accept the trurh even when confronted with it " really ? Still awaiting answers from you.No i did not think you were liam mullone as you kept saying ask him, so it would be pretty stupid if you were him and said to me ask him.
"Not directly when i asked for proof about asking if you were a election agent " proof again about have made a statement without any basis in fact. Why would i want to meet you ? you would just continue with the BS.
I have had my lie down and breathing exercises and ready to continue digging for the truth. Mental health and cox comment does ot bother me just another tatic from.you to muddy the waters. Looks like your getting spooked and looking for a way out.
@1263 Spooked from what? It's not clear what you're actually digging for and you're clearly not confident enough to ask me straight. Looks like you have a very suspicious mind, trust issues?
Here we go again, suspicious mind and trust issues. You will soon be running out of things to say.
Humour me, what is an anti-imperalist?
@1263 What do you mean 'here we go again'? Honestly I don't know what questions you want to ask if any in your quest for the truth. About me personally or the SDA and their candidate? You seem reluctant to ask away.
I've been humouring you throughout this thread, you're taking the Michael now
You said you were an anti-imperalist i asked you to define what that was. If you dont have the courage of your convictions to let us know then its up to you.
@1263 Seriously is that it? You asked me to define that 9 minutes ago. You could just have done a web search;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-imperialism That'll do.
The courage of my convictions??? Seriously, you were digging for truth and asking questions about me, as a supposed SDA mouth piece and political affiliation before that. That's what I was referring to and thought you were too. You really are pretty eratic and can't stay on track.
So once you've read the wikipedia page on anti-imperialism are we done? Are you serious or just having a laugh by wasting my time? Unbelievable.
This is what i by mean by here we go again, this will save you repeating yourself
Suspicous mind
Jo cox
Mental health
Overly suspicous
Zealous
Mistrust of other
So persistant
Use some initiave
Self perception
Different story behind the screen - not sure what you mean on that one
Brave to talk down
Dictorial way of communicating
Vent your anger on dawlish.com and me Really
The creation of Israel was a mistake ? Will you tell them?
Gaza is the same as german holocaust-really ?
Its a shame british people cant acknowlege sone dark events in history? Think we can allready mentioned some.
Now were getting to the nub, lenin, marxist, islamic, russian communism anti imperialism in other words parties of the left not including islam. I mentioned ( swp) Socialiat Workers Party and left wing groups in an earlier post, no wonder you dont want to be british. Finally got to the truth regarding your affiliations so no need to continue this thread. Good night.
@1263 What's the list of things I've written about?
The creation of Israel was a mistake, I've not got an issue repeating that to anyone. I wrote iot here, I'd say it in person. No big deal. Plenty of Jewish Rabbis, political commentators and historians have stated this before.
I never wrote that what happened in Gaza is the same as the Holocaust. Can you actually read or do you exist in an alternative reality?
Though both are genocide in my opinion. If you disagree that's up to you, no need to get so animated about it.
'It's a shame people cannot acknowledge some dark events in history' you seem unwilling or unable to acknowledge Churchill's role in death of over 4 million Bengalis and any culpability of the British government in the Potato Famine. Pretty hypocritical. Have you ever tried arguing these points with Bengalis or Irish people or people who are part of the diaspora and whose ancestors either died or became refugees?
You asked for a definition of anti-imperialism, you could've looked that up yourself. That Wikipedia page has quite a few types of anti-imperialism, I didn't specify which I subscribe to or if I necessarily agree with any of them listed, progressive imperialism isn't listed for example.
It's hilarious that you think I'm some Marxist or do you think I'm some sort of Islamic anti-imperialist jihadist?
Why do you keep banging on about the SWP? You're obsessed. Just been on the their website though, I'll have a look and familiarize myself with them.
Tell me one good thing aboutt Britishness? What does it mean to you to be British? Why should I consider myself British above being English?
I assume from your vociferous opposition to anyone who is anti empire that you're an imperialist, tell me what's so great about imperialism in general or the British empire specifically if that's your favoured form of imperialism?
Your tone really changed after Liam Mullone's video and swearing and possibly my response where I was critical of people like you for not researching your candidates/contacting them yourself. Looks like you're harbouring a grudge.
Its not me thats banging on about bengali famine its you,like people stuck in the past and cant get on. Your anti impererialism affilation is up to you and hold these views because your BRITISH and we allow freedom of speech. ( THATS your answer about one thing britishness is ) The irony is lost on you talking about democaracy whilst sharing views with dictatorships and countries with abuses of human rights. Bottom line if you dont like to be british why not move to a anti- imperialist country.
@1263 C'mon tell me one thing positive about Britishness. And on freedom of speech that and other civil liberties are being eroded currently, or are you comparing this country to somewhere else?
The irony is lost on you in that on the one hand you advocate for freedom of speech and democracy and on the other you defend imperialism, most forms of which suppress democracy and free speech in the conquered territories and nations.I mention the Bengali famine because that is an abuse of human rights perpetrated by Britain's war time 'hero' Churchill, it's an excellent example to refer to in reation to your arguments, and you've no comeback whatsover. That's your blind side and of course you don't like me continually highlighting it to pick holes in your weak arguments.
Do you think the majority of ordinary people living in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are imperialists at heart?
I don't, I think I'm already living in a collection of 4 countries where anti-imperialist sentiment widespread and has been for some time. That's inevitable given the immigration of peoples from the colonies who have either seen the true nature of British imperialism or learnt of it from their relatives and the cultures their descended from. In any case ordinary working English and Scottish people did not benefit from Empire, only the elite did. Ordinary people here were conquered, subjugated and then exploited - Those that benefited the most were those at the top at the expense of the rest of us and peoples in far fluing countries who were regarded as sub-human. Churchill wasa racist, he believed the British were superior, it's not a million miles away from Hitler's arayn race ideology and there werer many Nazi sympathizers in British society in the 30s and 40s, There's simply to much inter-mingling and cross cultural communication and exchange of ideas and values for imperialist propaganda to work as it used to. Maybe deep down you know that and you also know that Britishness (which is simply an imperialist concept built upon the foundations of a Norman and then Franco-Norman empire) is in decline. Perhaps you shoud consider emmigrating, it seems your ilk a just a vocal minority in society. Maybe another empire will come to dominate us all, what are your thoughts on American imperialism or EU expansionism, some would consider the latter imperialist.
Your just becoming repeatitative, tedious and boring. I am not going to waste my finite time as life is too short arguing about churchill, the bengal famine or any other issue that happened either decades or even longer ago. You have to get over it and come back to reality , this is 2024.
What a coincidence, the feeling's mutual.
Haha I have to get over issues that happened long ago.? We come full circle - you brought up the troubles in the first place and it all went from there. It is 2024 and I was considering the Scottish referendum and any vote on Irish unification in the present and years ahead.
It's hard to have a discussion about British imperialism without referring to the past in any case, from the unequal union with Scotland through to the British raj and then the loss of empire after the way. What's left of the British empire today? Gibraltar and tax havens like the Cayman islands so the elite can launder their money? Rule Britannia.
You're just an angry bloke with a grudge. I doubt you're genuinely interested in politics or history
Good luck with your communist and leftwing allies. I am sure they will approve of you spouting nonsense.
So who was your favourite Emperor of all time? I bet your a big fan of the Fuhrer. Send my regards to your right wing, genocide denying chums, I'm sure they'll lap up your particular brand of cranky nonsense.
Order of Lenin should give you a clue, as spelling probably wrong if you want to be pendantic about it and claim ignorance which is stange coming from a left wing anti-imperial8st stance.
However i will be drawing this thread to a close as i am sure the readers as is I, are bored with your opinion of historical events from the past and as said before this is 2024 so get over it. I am not going to be your " penpal" as you obviously dont get out much hence your fantasys that the world is full of imperialists. Possibly there might be a immigrant entry in your family tree that accounts for you hating to being called british, if not, seek mental help professionals.
@1263 You're correct this is 2024, so I doubt Vladimir Lenin would be seen posting any medals over in St Petersburg, some 100 years after his death.
I wouldn't be 'pally' with such an angry bloke like you in any context. You've obviously got some deep paranoia going on and you're obsessed with the threat of Communism as if we're living in the Cold War period, it's very McCarthyist and weird.
You may be an army verteran who fought in NI, with some PTSD, which would effect your perception of others and reality. Or you're just very British nationalistic, to the point you lack respect and tolerance of others whose views differ from yours. Which is as worrying as any left wing extremism.
And the feeling's mutual regarding your mental health, you'd clearly benefit from psychological help and definitely on anger issues.
And that fantasy comment is hilarious, you're the one who thinks anybody opposed to imperialism is automatically a Marxist, Communist, etc. I can be anti-imperialist in 2024, even if modern day imperialism and neo-colonialism is very different from the reign of Queen Victoria.
Where does your hatred of anyone you consider to the left of you come from? And why do you automatically think they're all extreme leftists? It's bizarre, crank-like behaviour.
And yes I, like all people living in these isles have immigrant stock, including you - though you may find that hard to accept. There's no single ethnic marker. I don't hate being called British, it's not as if it ruins my day if I'm called that, as explained I just don't identify with that as - is my right. So I've no idea why you take such issue about that - It seems you're not as tolerant of free speech and of freedom of expression as you'd like to make out. Do you have an issue with immigrants? Or just anyone who isn't a British patriot in your eyes?
So are you going to draw this thread to a close or can't you resist having the last word?
No need to apologise, you probably can't help being ill mannered and disrespectful. You can't leave it alone can you? who'll have the last word?
@1263 Thanks, but that's still a bitchy little side swipe to end on. I'd write less and not repeat myself if you were able to comprehend basic English and follow a conversation. But then that comment reflects the grudge you hold and you take everything so personally.