General Discussion
@burnside --------- Correct, and I wonder how many other contributors to this site got it right.
I remember it well and at the time my thoughts were, can't we control ourselves. Now we are locked into something, that it appears is difficult to get out of.
Like donald Trump says about America, we should be saying about the uk.
What we had in 1973 is not what we have now i wonder if we could have foreseen the future if we would have ever joined.
Who got us into this fine mess?
The racists who voted out, that's who!
I voted against entering the EC back in the 70's but accepted the fact that now we are in, let's make the most of it.
I'm standing by for lot's of abuse now.
All the first time voters will think twice when the EU form the' EU Army' ..they will be called to serve anywhere the EU say.
Why are those who voted out racist may it be that you are confusing racism with immigration the two have no connection whatsoever.
@majorp : we are not locked into anything. All that has been done so far is the cabinet, on 14/11/18, agreed on the text for delivery to the EU Commission, for that body to accept or reject. This then has to go before the House to be accepted by parliament. As it stands today, 15/11/18, the UK is in the EU. If you have listened to the commentary from today, by numerous MPs/analylists/etc, this agreed text will be rejected by the Commission for one and second, the House will not pass it into law. The agreed text, call it Chequers 2.0, is again dead in the water. The voting maths of the House will not add up to a successful vote for the PM. We are in the same 'place' as of the day after the referendum result.
@wondering : The UK is already part of a non-national 'army'; NATO. Under NATO rules the UK is obliged to send serving military personnel where NATO determines. And yet you do not seem to find this objectionable?
@leatash : immigration is primarily the movement of people from one country to another for permenant/temporary residence. Racism is the subjective result by the destination country's resident population where, in any, population you have racists. In an interview on Radio 4 this lunch time with a Tory MP he stated (and I paraphrase) when travelling around my constituancy (it was in the North of the country, I can't remember where) people told him they had voted Leave to to stop the free movement of people (immigration), to stop the monies being paid to the EU and to remove the juristiction of the ECJ (European Court of Justice). They did not mention the customs union or trade or, in majority, anything else. To my interpretation this validation of their votes is slightly tainted with zenophobia which isn't far from racism. Immigration and racism are inextricably connected.
I wonder how many people in England, Wales and Scotland thought about Brexit and its impact and complications with regard to the island of Ireland. I know it didn't enter my head until the ramifications and complications of it all came to the fore after June 2016.
As I understand it.......... where the EU and a non EU country has a border that border has to be a hard one. (there are customs checks on the border between Sweden and Norway for example). Under WTO rules (which would come into play in the event of a hard, cliff edge, Brexit) there also have to be hard borders. But..........a legal (and for goodness sake let's not forget the psychological impact as well of there being a hard border between the RoI and N.I!!!) requirement of the Good Friday Agreement is that there should be no hard border between the RoI and NI . Which of course was/is no problem as long as both the UK and the RoI were/are in the same customs union/single market (the EU).
So, we have an international treaty (the Good Friday Agreement) that says no hard border between the RoI (EU) and N.I (the UK).
But under WTO rules, if we had a hard Brexit, there has to be a hard border between the RoI (EU) and N.I (the UK).
And if we don't have a customs agreement of some kind with the EU then there also has to be a hard border between the RoI and N.I
If anyone has any ideas as to how this conundrum can be resolved please send them to 10 Downing Street.
More on Northern Ireland:
1. Majority of those who voted in N.I wished to Remain in the EU.
2. The Democratic Unionist Party (note the word Unionist) argued for Leave.
3. Since the outcome of the snap general election in 2017 the 10(?) DUP MPs have supported the Conservatives in parliament. Without the DUP MPs the Conservatives would not have a majority.
4. Both the Conservative Party and the DUP staunchly support the maintenance and continual existence of the UK. (the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland).
5. Therefore Northern Ireland shouldn't be treated any differently from the other countries that form the UK.
6. Although the DUP argued for Leave they also want a frictionless border with the RoI.
7. But if they have a frictionless border with the RoI (EU) and the other countries of the Uk don't, then NI will be different from the rest of the UK.
8. So to keep all the countries comprising the UK in alignment trade/customs wise the whole of the Uk will need to have the same deal with the EU.
9. See my comments in my post above this one.
10. "There's a whole in my bucket deal Liza, dear Liza, there's a whole in my bucket, dear Liza, a hole".
@Lostit. every one has there own opinion. if we are not locked in to anything, why do we need the negotiations to break away? the agreement that is on the table is so far the best that can be done for the moment.
There is free movement across the Irish border now, and so far it has worked well, because we are both in the EU. But, if we come out then the EU will dictate how that border is controlled, not us, because N.I, will be out and the rest of Ireland will still be under the same rules, regulations, laws and instructions as the rest of the EU. So if we are not locked in, please tell everyone how to get out.
So Leave voters are all racists, the Remainers forgot to throw in the other usual insults; that we are all thick, uneducated, Daily-Mail-reading scum. And if immigration and racism are inextricably linked, does that then mean every country in the world which has immigration rules is also racist?
@ burneside : Australia and the USA as 2 major developed countires that have immigration policies designed, or attempt too in the case of the US, favour the immigraton of white people. Most recently, Trump had his immigration policy regarding arab states over turned by the courts. And then there is his attitude to South Americans. His support of White Supremacy, also, doesn't encourage a belief that his foreign policies would reflect any differing attitude.
Australia for decades had a policy that actively discouraged or disallowed people of colour to succeed in immigtation applications. This has been well documented.
@ majorp : The solution to the Irish border probelm may well sort itself out, albeit in 20-30 years. It is predicted with almost 100% certainty that Northen Ireland will have a catholic population majority within 15-20 years. If NI suffers from leaving Europe and especially so due to any or no agreement/deal being achieved, it's not a stretch of the imagination that the Catholic population and maybe some Prodestants, could be persuaded to follow a political party that promised a referendum for the unification of Eire and NI and in the EU by default. Granted this is some way-a-way, but any 'Backstop' agreed to would last this long, also by default. If this happens, the prosepect of Scotland and maybe Wales also seeking independance (unless of course Scotland already is independant by this time) will increase by a huge factor.
Search "when will northern ireland catholic population overtake protestants?"
@ burneside : you might find the Daily Mail will be taking a different stance on things from now on. It has a new editor, check today's front page (16/11/18).
@Lostit: back in the mid 1980s I remember a Northern Ireland nationalist telling me that the nationalists had but only to play the long game with regard to Irish unification. What did he mean? Well, as he pointed out to me with a smile - as a general rule Catholics have more children than Protestants. Thus over a period of time.........
@All - info here https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-44615404 re the Brexit Irish backstop proposal (see my postings on Ireland above)
Complete speclation by Lostit. It is all might, if's and maybe's. It is now that matters. SO HOW DO WE GET OUT?
We have more bargaining power that many of the other countries that are still in the EU. Our fisheries policy is scaring many who roam around in our waters freely now, but won't be able too when we leave There are many others that depend heavily on what we buy from them and are scared that when we leave, we will source our goods from elsewhere. Some of those countries that are still burning the EU flag are struggling now. They are worried, but the press does not seem interested in expressing their fears------YET.
The findings is sure to bolster the view among Brexiteers that there may be divisions on the EU side that can be exploited to Britain’s advantage in Phase 2 of the negotiations, which are due to start within weeks. So far, the EU has demonstrated rock-solid unity over the three divorce issues of citizens’ rights, the Brexit bill and the Northern Irish border. But that may be harder to sustain when talks touch on issues for which countries (and regions within countries) have differing interests.
EU leaders are aware of the danger. French President Emmanuel Macron warned on Friday that the EU27 must present a “united front” or risk an outcome “unfavorable to the European Union and thus to each one of us.”
“It is highly significant that other EU member states’ authorities are beginning to engage with the consequences of a no-deal Brexit because it is something that should concern them greatly,” said prominent Tory Brexiteer Bernard Jenkin. “I think the pressure is mounting on the EU negotiators to deliver a sensible deal which disrupts as little as possible.”
A No Deal Brexit is a lose/lose outcome.
So of course both sides are looking for a deal which disrupts as little as possible and to get to as near a win/win situation as is possible given all the issues involved.
But that could take more time than the March 2019 deadline allows for.
Click on this link for a synopsis of what May is proposing https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46208764
The question as I see it. What are the others thinking if there was a no deal and would they let it happen. I don't think so, as most of them have more to lose than we do. Who are we talking too in the negotiations, is it the EU as a whole or individual countries leaders or both?
The negotiations are being led on the EU's part by Michel Barnier and his team. As well as the Uk government having to agree to whatever is being proposed as I understand the situation so too do all the governments of the remaining EU countries.
We could end up with No Deal by default and neither the Uk or the EU wants that.
But.......
Negotiations on the UK side are being conducted by Olly Robbins who was once Principal Private Secretary to Tony Blair, and while studying at Oxford was president of the Oxford Reform Club, a group promoting a federal EU. So we have a Remain Prime Minister and the chief negotiator is of the same ilk. No wonder we are where we are.
Michael Portillo made a very good point on Thursday's This Week programme:
“The EU has made a strategic error, short of marching PM May into a railway carriage in Compiègne Forest, they could not have produced a more humiliating surrender. “History tells us when you humiliate countries with a surrender, it doesn’t go well."
If Treason May somehow manages to get this deal through parliament, do not think for one moment it will be the end the matter. The battle to leave the EU will start afresh.
I thought I heard someone say it will all be over by Christmas.
Thing is though, they didn't say which one.......
All i can say is roll on 11pm 29th March 2019 i have a big box of fireworks ready and waiting.
@ majorp : i am confused at to what you are refering to when you say we are locked into. When you wrote " Now we are locked into something, that it appears is difficult to get out of.", I took what you refer to us being locked into as being the new draft withdrawal agreement and the NI border problem. Is this correct? OR did you mean our actual EU membership?
@ Leatash and I've got a big box full of food stuffs and over the counter medicines ready and waiting.......
Fact we export 20% more medicines to the EU than we import and have you noticed that supermarkets are now selling more produce from Argentina, South Africa, they will suffer just the same as us Lynne.
Short video here explaining Theresa May's proposed Brexit deal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE7nN0cgs9A
lasts about 11 minutes. Ignore the ads that pop up every now and then.
Can you give me a link concerning what you say concerning medicines please. Thanks. And even if you are correct, and I am not saying that you are not - then just because we export more medicine than we import does not mean that we produce all the types of medicine we need (hence the need to import it).
@ Lostt. I was not talking about the agreement, That came out after I said what I said and I am not psychic.
The info came from a TV program reference Brexit and the NHS one of the interesting facts was 82% of insulin comes from the EU and the vast proportion from one factory in Germany the other interesting fact was that the PM is insulin dependant. But it was mentioned that the EU are also dependant on life saving drugs that are only manufactured in the UK so they have as much to lose as we have.
If it's true we have no say on future decission making or the right to veto. Maybe they would demand
we surrender our entire Royal Navy fleet sailing it into a German or French port. Followed by a document signing at
a forest 40 odd miles North of Paris. If Railway carriage available.
Michael Portillo made the same analogy on last Thursday's This Week programme:
Mr Portillo said the European Union “humiliated” Britain in its Withdrawal Agreement which has been ridiculed by both Brexiteer and Remainer politicians.
Speaking on BBC This Week, Mr Portillo said: “I think the European Union has made a strategic error, short of marching Mrs May into a railway carriage in Compiègne Forest, they could not have produced a more humiliating surrender.
“And all of history tells us that when you humiliate countries with a surrender, it doesn’t go well thereafter.”
That is what he is saying, others are saying something different. Until we are out, we will never know who was right.
We had over 40 years for the EEC/EC/EU to prove itself, and then the majority decided it wasn't worth it and they no longer wanted to be part of the club. Unfortunately Treason May has other ideas, and we won't be leaving after all.
In my opinion, those that actually run our country are more than likely quite happy with the way things are going. It's not much different to many wars/conflicts that have and are ongoing around the world and that is those at the top of the tree prosper in good and bad times, but more so when things are bad.
Again, in my opinion, the politicians are merely puppets to give the electorate a feeling that democracy does exist in this counrty. I believe the Brexit referendum had been a calculated project to put the issues of leaving the eu to bed, but for some reason things went very wrong for those that thought it up. Cameron was on his toes pretty sharpish when the results came in.
To tipfy how badly this country is you only have to look at the 2017 general election results and see how many seats snp got for the number of votes and their consequential power in the U.K. government decision making machine.
The U.K. needs a massive enema to purge the blockages that are stopping the country from working efficiently.
It may not be nice or smell good, but the end result may and I say may, no pun intended, be better than we have at the moment or not.
Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few.
And
It was easier to know it than to explain why I knew it If you were asked to prove that two and two made four, you might find some difficulty, and yet you are quite sure of the fact.
That is why in my opinion, whether we stay or go, there will be difficulties somewhere but only in the short term.
p { margin-bottom: 0.25cm; line-height: 120%; }a:link { } p { margin-bottom: 0.25cm; line-height: 120%; }a:link { }
The deal May has agreed means that because of the Irish border issue we remain tied to EU regulations until a satisfactory deal is found, that means, in effect, we need the Brussel's permission to fully leave the EU. Until then we cannot formulate our own independent trade policy and make trade deals around the world. The EU does want a successful indepenent trading nation on its doorstep, it might encourage other members to do the same thing, and will do everything it can to keep us tied to its regulations.
May campaigned for the Remain side and has conned us all for the last two years into believing that she really meant "Brexit means Brexit" and "No deal is better than a bad deal". They were just slogans to keep us quiet while behind the scenes her "negotiators" were doing everything possible to keep us in the EU's clutches.
Despite all the huffing and puffing from Labour, and the Tory rebels, I believe her deal will eventually get approved by parliament. I sincerely hope I am proved wrong, and we leave without a deal next March.
Deedoodle once again lowers the tone of the debate. But, to stick to facts;
Conservatives needed about 43,000 votes for its 318 seats
Labour about 49,000 votes per seat for its 262 seats
The Liberals 198,000 votes per seat for its 12 seats
The SNP about 28,000 votes per seat 35 seats
The DUP about 29,000 votes per seat for its 10 seats
Sinn Fein about 34,000 votes for its 7 seats
The Greens about 525,000 votes per seat for its 1 seat
UKIP polled 593,000 votes for no seats
If we had a system that awarded seats on the basis of votes then the following would haved been the likely result based on 49,532 votes as the average for all seats
Conservatives 276 seats, Labour 260 seats, SNP 20 seats, Liberals 48 seats, DUP 6 seats, Sinn Fein 5 seats, Greens 11 seats, Ukip 12 seats
I am not sure what power the SNP have in the UK government decision making machine: maybe you could enlighten us all. I believe that the DUP has got influence?
DUP? They've cost Theresa May around about £1billion of UK (ie England's?)tax money and 10 Parliamentary seats worth of disproportionate influence as to how the Brexit negotiations have gone/are going/will go. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/dup-deal-latest-how-much-extra-money-funding-theresa-may-conservative-tory-uk-taxpayers-a7809231.html
Now that's what I call clout.
(how many noughts in a billion? Just divide that by 10 to see how much each DUP seat has cost Theresa May (or us to be more precise)
Are the DUP not British ? they are quite entitled to maximse political clout into revenue the same as the Welsh and Scots. It's a mere pittance compared to having that loony Coyrbn and his stalinst momentum cronies in charge.
Today is a sad day. we don't like the thought of Britain leaving.
Of course they don't, they will not be getting our money as we are one of the biggest contributors.
So we will be leaving without a deal then, May's treachery will not get through parliament and will bring about her demise. Good stuff.
I don't know what news you are following, but everything I am seeing says May's deal hasn't got a chance of being passed by parliament. Leavers and Remainers are united in their condemnation of it.
Trump and the Irish have the solution this from the Irish Times 27th November 2018 but they have to back a no deal Brexit to achieve it!
Trump’s tariff tactics could make no-deal Brexit work for Ireland
Security exemption in WTO rules could enable tariff-free cross-Border tr
Security exception
But there are exceptions to the scope of the WTO rules, including most importantly the “national security exception,” article 21 of the general agreement on tariffs and trade (Gatt): “Nothing in this agreement shall be construed . . . to prevent any contracting party from taking any action which it considers necessary for the protection of its essential security interests . . . taken in time of war or other emergency in international relations.”
US president Donald Trump has been using this exception to introduce aggressive tariffs against a variety of countries – often without any justification. But Britain could use the same clause in a perfectly justifiable manner to lower tariffs in the name of security rather than raising them.
The Taoiseach has argued very reasonably that any measures concerning the Border should be hard for the UK to reverse unilaterally. Accordingly, unilateral British opening under article 21 could be supplemented by a bilateral accord setting up an intergovernmental British-Irish commission (along the lines of several such institutions established by the Belfast Agreement) to monitor the security implications of reimposing tariffs on the Border – and the UK could commit itself to abiding by that commission’s recommendations concerning Border security. This arrangement would offer the British the possibility of a genuine Brexit that does not hurt Ireland while giving the Republic the assurance it needs that it would not be compromised by any unilateral reversal of the policy.
How might the EU respond to such a unilateral opening of the land border by the UK? Brussels is also committed to keeping an open border in Ireland for security reasons, so a unilateral opening of the land border by the UK should prompt a reciprocal opening by the EU. Contrary to received opinion, WTO rules thus offer the basis of a bespoke solution to the Irish problem, rather than posing an obstacle that threatens to derail Brexit altogether.
The rest of the article makes sense too. It is worth a read.
And the comments underneath the article are also an interesting read. Here is one of them.
The glaring hole in your argument is the problem of norms and standards, not tariffs. If there is a hard Brexit and the U.K lowers its food and health and safety standards to accommodate trade deals with the U.S, then we in the Republic will be obliged to police the border to protect the internal EU market from a flood of inferior products entering it through the UK. You seem oblivious to the fact that the Irish border will become an external EU border after Brexit. More Brexiteer magical thinking!
and here is another interesting analysis of the Ireland conundrum (and how it might end up being resolved).
Leave the E.U. with no deal thats what we voted for and when Russia kicks off over E.U. expansionism in Crimea and the Ukraine,
We leave Our so called Friends and Partners to be on thier own and leave NATO. AKA Go and Sod off.
We have sent our best young men and women before to protect these ungrateful bastards.NEVER NEVER AGAIN!
You are on your own.
As for the Southern Irish is concerned ban their lorries from crossing into the UK and on to Dover and get them to send the goods
by ferry around the mainland of Britain and direct to Europe. Jobs a good'un.
So we are to leave the EU and NATO?
I think we might be the ones who find ourselves on our own.
I wonder who would come to our rescue should we ever need it?
I am an optimist. Nobody knows what will happen. As far as I can see, everything is guesswork.Would it be better to stay in----I don't know. Is the deal on the table the best deal we could get-----I don't know.
If the deal is rejected, what will happen?------I don't know. What I do know is that the world is round, the sky will not fall in if any path that is taken.
HI Lynne YES Well don't rely on the French Dutch or if memory serves the Germans. Or are you suffering the illness many have of convenient
amnesia.
From the link I've given above.
Experts have predicted it will cost an estimated £3bn to £5bn, and it is unclear whether the UK will get back the £1.2bn it sunk into the Galileo project.
Sky News reported on Thursday that government plans to build Britain's own system could hit the buffers because other countries have already claimed signal space.
Bleddyn Bowen, an expert in space policy at Leicester University, told Sky News that the entire spectrum of usable radio frequencies has been shared out between the countries, with no spare capacity.
"If Britain wants to build its own system it would have to get all those countries to agree where to take spectrum from. That is a geopolitical headache for Britain to try to resolve if it goes ahead," he said.
I thought this country didn't have any money to spare ( and purleease do not start on about Brexit dividend tosh). And note the last two paragraphs of my post above.
When people come here and are prepared to spend vast sums just to stay (one hotel in London commands £20,000 per night) then that is mega bucks and the tax that is paid on such sums is mega and the money they spend is mega and the tax paid on those that spend vast sums is mega.
If brexit means loosing inter -planatary agreememts, then so be it. We can do it our selves. Look at the inventions that have been born in this country. I could go on but I would be wasting time.
If jobs are to be lost, it will not be because of brexit. There have been jobs lost in this country before brexit. There will be 80,000 jobs lost in Scotland because of brexit - how do they know that and what jobs are they talking about?
We voted to come out, and it seems to me the deal we have on the table is the best we are going to get. We can't go back to the EU and ask for a new deal.
And how much did this government pay the DUP?
It is highly probable that we could be (notice the word could) leaving without a deal. It may take longer to negotiate new deals with individual countries in the EU and the rest of the world after we leave, but no EU country is going to stop trading with us just because we are coming out, most would have more to lose than us. It takes years to uproot a business from hear to one where they could live with the same terms and conditions as they have now. So if there is a no deal bring it on, and if MP's finally accept the deal that is on the table now, then so be it, either way we are coming out on the 29th March 2019.
Re trade with EU countries post Brexit if no deal.
As I understand the situation we will then go on to World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules. This would involve tariffs and custom checks. So therefore there will be delays at ports such as Dover and Calais. Which is why on both sides of the channel stockpiling measures have been, and are, taking place.
This country imports about 50% of it food, a fair whack of which comes in from the EU. Fresh food doesn't like delays.
And of those countries that export food to the UK, how many and for how long will they tollerate the situation of being held up at the ports?
I don't see that it will be for business to decide. If we leave with a No Deal and thus go onto WTO rules and regulations businesses both sides of the channel will be negatively impacted. BUT WTO rules will be the rules.
Which is why neither the EU or the UK want a No Deal situation. *
But...........
* although hard line Brexiteers seem not to have a problem with such a scenario
Lots of info online re No Deal. Just do a seach using words like What would happen if there is a No Deal Brexit.
http://home.bt.com/news/uk-news/how-mps-voted-in-the-eu-referendum-11364110245462
And this is why we will never leave.
@Lynne. All governments depend on businesses, even LA's depend on businesses. I remember dear old Mr Clatworthy once saying at a council meeting "we run to council, not the chamber of trade" and that was when it was suggest there should be some free parking in Dawlish. Well he lost that battle, as we now have free parking albeit only half an hour,
@majorp - Yes I agree all governments depend on businesses. The problem for the UK and the EU is how to protect businesses and at the same time have the UK leave the EU and at the same time have no hard border on the island of Ireland.
That dilemma is what Theresa May is trying to resolve. It would be exactly the same dilemma whoever was the prime minister or whichever party was in power.
The proposed deal between the UK and the EU is an attempt at resolving this.
But...........as it attempts to resolve some of the issues so it then throws up others. Which is what the 'revolt' in the House of Commons is all about.
What folk forget is that the results of referendoums in the UK are not legaly binding and Parliament is sovereign so they our elected representatives can ignore the result and do what they like. Now i for one realised this and had many discussions with friends and forecast exactly what we have now as far as i am concerned this has just been a paper chase and the chances of leaving are less than 15%. And of course we have recently had the European court advising that article 50 could be legaly revoked so i see a so called peoples vote happening and article 50 being revoked.
If she survives tonight's vote the DUP will withdraw support, and she'll go down in January when she tries to get her Remain deal through parliament.
Depends. A week is a long time in politics as someone once said.
I'll give you a different scenario. She leaves the vote in the HoC on the proposed deal until the last possible moment that she can. Now that the No Deal hardline Brexiteers have shown their hand and in the process have now lost their influence, so now the Remain and Soft Brexit MPs have gained leverage. In other words, May can write off the Brexiteers and the DUP. So she now has to persuade the Remainers and Soft Brexiteers across the whole house to back her deal,
And if she wants their votes then they will want something in return.
May now has a guaranteed minimum of 117 Tory MPs who will vote against her Remain deal, plus the DUP. Corbyn has denounced her sham deal and will carry Labour MPs with him. We are now closer to a no-deal exit than ever before, it is enshrined in law that we leave on March 29th, that's just over 100 days away. May's strategy of trying to bounce MPs into accepting her deal at the last moment will backfire spectacularly.
So a Remain supporting House of Commons is attempting to overturn the result of the referendum, doesn't say much about democracy does it? However, these MPs have already passed the Withdrawal Act which stipulates we leave with or without a deal on March 29th next year. There will need to be major shenanigans in parliament for this to change.
Who said anything about overturning the result of the referendum?
How we leave and under what terms is what is being disputed.
And I thought the situation with regard to the 29th MARCH 2019 date is that it can be extended provided all 28 members states of the EU agree (ie the UK plus the other 27).
Unless there is a change in the law then we automatically leave the EU on March 29th next year. The transition period is something else entirely.
There will be a travel fee payable by EU citizens who want to travel to EU countries after bexit. Well don't go, and see which one of the 27 would cracked first and drop the travel fee.
According to The Sun this fee will cost £6.00 per person and will be valid for three years.
Can't see that causing a nation wide boycott of EU countries by Brits.
How much is a packet of 20 cigarettes these days?
A visa to enter the USA for a British passport holder presently costs 14 USD (that presently converts to just over £11.00) per person and lasts for two years (or less than that if the passport runs out before the two year period is reached).
We are already a globally trading nation!!
"the UK trades with 24 countries and territories under WTO rules alone. With 68 others it has, as part of the EU, free trade agreements, either fully or partly in place, which all enable trade on better terms."
Ah, BBC Reality Check. Which just the other week was telling people that the 1975 referendum was all about whether we should join the EEC. Not much of a reality check, is it? Must be written by teenage interns.
Okay then Burneside. Can you tell us all just how many countries it is that the UK presently trades with via the EU and how many we presently trade with on WTO rules.
and on the matter of reality checks............just how real were all those claims made by the Leave campaign back in 2016?
And I am merely asking you to tell the rest of us just how many countries the Uk presently trades with via the EU and how many, and which, countries we presently trade with on WTO rules.
Please quote your source(s) when you respond.
As it is yours. So disprove what I have claimed in terms of the Uk already being a global trader.
Of course the UK is a global trader, and if we ever get unshackled from the EU we will be an even bigger and better global trader, able to strike trade deals with whomever we please. It's interesting to note that the EU has recently signed a free trade agreement with Japan which will come into force sometime next year, but the Japanese will not be paying billions into Brussels, accepting free movement of people from EU countries or giving Brussels supremacy over its laws. It is wholly possible to trade freely with the EU without being politicallty handcuffed to it.
Didn't the negotiations for the free trade deal between the EU and Japan start off in 2012?
And how long did the Canada/EU free trade deal take before being agreed? 7 years or so.
From what I understand it can take years for Free Trade Deals to be agreed.
In the meantime UK plc will be on WTO terms and tariffs.
Can you clarify something for me please Burneside. Am I right in thinking that a Free Trade Agreement between the UK and the EU would mean a hard border on the island of Ireland?
And wouldn't WTO terms demand the same thing?
There's an interesting letter concerning Brexit in the latest Dawlish Post. See page 61. Letter is headed "Laying bare Grylls' myths......."
In the same paper, on page 60, there is also a small editorial on Brexit. This is what it says;
" Where do we even start to make sense of the diabolical route taken by our so called betters in this bewildering game of the blind following the blind closely pursued by the haven't-got-the-foggiest. There is no vision - and there are no words either. A right mess. Help, everyone, help!"
News just in from Holland........I wish the brits would take the time to see whas going on here......I am a scouser living in Holland getting on for 40 yrs now....it is just as bad, in some ways worse than the UK. For example, Health Insurance is compulsory whether working or unemployed. My wife and I pay 250 euros per month and that is basic, no dentals, physio or extras, 2 major hospitals have shut down- there ae no beds- the A&E is the same as the UK, families are asked to look after their parents because of shortages in the care service.
The immigration problem is laughing stock, food banks ae NOT coping, people in work are not making ends meet and are relying on food banks......Belgium, Germany and France have the sme problems. Agela Merkel is stepping down as PM (Chancellor) but has forgot to tell anyone she has a secure high position in Brussels..... why would you want to be a member of a group of pocket filling thieves who do not care about their people?.....as for Junker.....don,t get me started...... The EU countries are crumbling and no f**ker gives a "daggle-doo- dandy", so get out while you can and maybe others will follow suit....they are scoring and flexing their muscles and hoping it will turn around, because the membership fee the UK puts in every year, will have to be put up by the remaining countries......Holland will have to double their fee we have been told. What other countries can afford this? Spain, Greece, Italy all bankrupt. So you can see the EU does not want the UK and will bully any way to try and win it over by threatning the Northern Ireland deal, the fishing deal, giving back Gibralter and whatever else they can get their grubby hands on, so don,t be fooled, it,s not a bed of roses, things ate bad here, and like I said "some matters are worse".
The riots in France are not just about fuel tax, it,s about living standards.....Bel and Holl have also taken up the baton with the Yellow Jacket Demonstrators because they are tired of it.....Take the time to find out for yourselves, then you will be glad of Brexit and like I have sais with any sense Holl will follow suit....I also have a ver good and close friend who I have shared business with, based in France. He has lived there for over 15yrs and is now looking to relocate his family and business here in the UK.
There you go, so make your own minds up.
This thread has been closed.