General Discussion
Webmaster... Trying to copy and paste onto this forum. I know how to copy and paste, however just can't seem to do it for this site. I have sent email to all Councillors with regards this topic. Could it be possible to send it to your email address if you have one and you could post it for me.
Thanks
hi @Brooklyn Bridge - try clicking on 'source' and pasting. i have problems typing sometimes on this site and have to move over to source.
On other matters. There was a great evening last night at Coryton Cove with some chilled music and pizzas. Seriously the number of moaning minnies who didn't like 'the type' of music was unbelievable on Facebook today, The cafe actually apologised!! This is why we will have nothing nice in Dawlish because of the miserable outlook of the people who generally move here. I clicked on the profiles of the moaners and the majority were older people who were from up country. Why does everything have to be so Darby and Joan in Dawlish. A bit of fun and 'outraged of Dawlish' is back at it again.
Completely agree Flo, it was a great night at the Cove and I hope there will be many more. The cafe has brought the Cove back to life and it’s lovely going down there. Some people will moan whatever is put on!
This letter from Bob Vickery was published in the Dawlish Gazette last month.
@Lynne - do you know who puts the restrictions on the money to spend - why does it have to be new and not improve facilities (eg the manor) and why can't it be spent when needed rather than a rush job where we all know it will be a bodge.
I was a young mother once (not long ago cough) and I had no issue walking to the Manor or up to the Spider Park. Reduce space for the funfair, that would be a shame ...
@Margaret Swift - glad someone agrees with me!
@flo - the s106 money (ie money that, in this case Sainsbury's, hands over to the council) must be spent within a certain amount of time and on certain things only. This would have formed part of the planning consent. In this case the money has to be spent on things concerning improving the town centre (to offset the negative impact that Sainsbury's has had/might have had on the town centre economy.) Some of that money has already been spent. What is left has to be spent within the very near future or else I understand it has to be returned to Sainsbury's (and with interest.)
The money from GWR has to be spent by April 2019. I guess GWR dictate the terms.
Would development of the Manor Park be of benefit to the town centre?
Best person to ask about all this is the Chair of the lawn working party - Martin Wrigley email martin.wrigley@gmail.com
Lynne, I did have an immediate reply to my email from Mr. Wrigley. I would post it here if only I could copy and past. Then you would read my email and his response.
@Lynne, i read Bob Vickery’s letter and he is wrong, the survey did not produce a result in favour of a playpark next to the bowling green. the results were not clear cut at all, which is why a referendum on the issue is required.
Re: Play park on Dawlish Lawn. Mon, 25 Jun 2018 15:55 Cllr Martin Wrigley martin.wrigley@dawlish.gov.uk, Many thanks for your email. The Lawn Working group has been set up to look at the ideas about the Lawn and to see if we can find a consensus that the Town can endorse. No decisions have yet been made, and nothing is set in stone. We are currently working on a plan to ensure that we get a good consultation in the town around the future vision for the lawn, and what the town wants from it. The idea of the lawn being a peaceful tranquil place with the waterfowl in pride of place has been discussed in the working group, and we feel is very important as you suggest. Also we agree that we want to be very careful not to aggravate any ASB. One thing that has come across to us very strongly is that whatever happens many people in Dawlish wish to retain a traditional, peaceful, tranquil space with waterfowl roaming free. They also want a flexible versatile space for activities including the carnival and others. I hope that the consultation will bring a wide consensus as to the future of the lawn, and the play space will be one topic that we need to consult about. Many Thanks Martin. From: Sent: 24 June 2018 23:55:18 To: Cllr Martin Wrigley; noel.nickless.; Cllr Alison Foden; Cllr Lin Goodman-Bradbury; Cllr Val Mawhood; Cllr Gary Taylor Subject: Fwd: Play park on Dawlish Lawn. -----Original Message- To: martin.wrigley ; noel.nickless. ; alison.foden ; lin.goodman-bradbury To: martin.wrigley ; noel.nickless ; alison.foden ; lin.goodman-bradbury
At last figured out how to paste this reply from Mr. Wrigley.
Dear Councillors, There has been a lot of publicity with regard to locating a play park on the Dawlish Lawn. Some of your meetings have been conducted in closed sessions with very little transparency for the residents of Dawlish. You had conducted a survey that was in some way skewed in favour of this play park. First, it was decided that the play park be located between the bandstand and the bowling green. Although I am opposed to having a play park at all, I feel this would be the right location for it. Now the latest development from the Council and the "Lawn working group" states that the Piazza outside the tourist information centre (TIC) would be a better location. I am strongly opposed to this location not only to have major construction but the destruction of one of the beauty spots on the Dawlish lawn with the trees, foliage, shrubbery, and plantings of flowers. This area has an abundant wildlife of nesting birds as well as a family of hedgehogs residing ther e. Now you want to build this white elephant of a play park outside our building. I do not wish to look out of my window and see plastic slides, swings, etc., that also would include the noise that would emanate from this area. We in these buildings have enough ASB and you could be assured of vandalism during the hours of darkness. This is supposed to be a tranquil place for the public and visitors to sit and watch the wildlife. So, in conclusion, I am vehemently opposed to the location of the Piazza to be a play park of any size. A courtesy of a reply would be appreciated.
My email to the Council. Thank you for those that gave me some help to paste
More info on the Sainsbury's S106 money.
Back in 2011 Sainsbury's were at long last granted planning permission to build a supermarket at Shutterton. Planning application 08/01472/MAJ
I have been looking at the S106 agreement concerning that planning permission.
Part of that permission involved certain undertakings one of which concerns a £200,000 town centre contribution by Sainsbury's "towards the cost of projects aimed at sustaining the vitality and viability of Dawlish town centre and including works to meet objectives contained in the Dawlish Town Centre Masterplan dated April 2008 as published by Dawlish Community Trust."
The £200,000 was payable by Sainsburys to Teignbridge District Council within 30 business days of the commencement of development. I cannot remember when the development commenced but I do know that Sainsbury's opened in August 2011. So sometime after March 2011 (when planning permission was granted) from the moment the first shovel hit the ground and the development commenced (plus a max of 30 business days), the 10 year time limit started.
TDC has to use all monies received for the purposes specified within 10 years of the commencement of the development of the Sainsbury's store or has to repay Sainsburys whatever money is left over at a rate of 1% interest.
So time is ticking on.......looks like April/May 2021 might be the 10 year deadline.
Some of this money has already been spent. I am not sure how much is presently left over. Cllrs should know.
@Brooklyn Bridge - 26 06 18 10:59 - well said.
If there is money still in the pot why not use it to replace the bandstand with something in keeping with its surrounding. I and others have mentioned a bandstand similar to the victorian styled one in Newton Abbot. Certainly a worthy addition to The Lawn compared to the play park only for under 8's, not to mention all the noise that will emenate from such an area.
The amount of shenanagins that has gone on to get the under this under 8's play park on The Lawn area is, in my opinion, borders on obsessive.
What the Dawlish Town Masterplan said about the lawn
I have mentioned in my post above the Dawlish town masterplan. Unfortunately it is no longer available online. However that is only a fairly recent event as I post below something from its contents that I have posted on a previous thread (Hard copies of the masterplan quite likely lodged with TDC, Dawlish Town council and private copies no doubt held by others should you wish to see the document for yourselves.)
A couple of extracts from the DTC Town Centre Masterplan document:
Para 1.1 Background:
"The plan contains a long list of proposed projects, including priority action to:
. improve the Lawn, Manor Gardens and other public and open spaces
. increase turnover, footfall and employment by making the Strand safer and more attractive to visitors..."
Para 10.5 The Lawn:
"The Lawn will return to its original character as a generously proportioned, tranquil and elegant green space in the heart of Dawlish. By removing visual clutter these proposals will reinforce the simple, formal character of the Lawn, and restore the integrity of the spatial set-piece formed by the Strand, Brunswick Place and gardens..."
Bob Vicary says 'This will reduce the space available for the funfair and lawn events'
That'll happen wherever a play park is put, not really a useful comment to help make a decision.
I believe part of the decluttering of visuals was the over abundance of signs. Although since this doc was originally created it has increased signficantly rather than decreased. Next will have signs in town directing vistitors to where the nearest sign is.
@Brooklyn Bridge, sorry for not getting back sooner. If you or anyone else ever needs to email me then my email is webmaster@dawlish.com
Can anyone enlighten me please as to the arguments for why there should be a playpark on the lawn.
I know that it has been argued that it would benefit the town centre economy (a fallacious argument in my opinion) but are there any other reasons?
No, Lynne I can’t think of any justifiable reasons or arguments as to why there should be a space-consuming, brash and noisy play park on our Lawn, which is most unlikely to generate any appreciable additional income for the town.
Clearly spending the Sainsbury’s S106 money on such would be in direct contradiction to the objectives of the Dawlish Town Masterplan which include restoring the historical character, maintaining tranquility and proportions. Therefore, surely it would be illegal to release the funds for this type of project.
Restore and expand the playpark in the Manor Gardens, perhaps. And run a catering franchise out of the Manor House to support it and make it a vibrant area for family enjoyment.
I said in an earlier post (26th June) that I believed the Sainsbury's money had to spent by May/June 2021.
That date is incorrect.
I have been told, and having looked again at the planning documents I agree, that the money (what is left of it and I don't know how much as I type this) has to be spent by October 2020.
I have asked if a breakdown of how the £200,000 has been spent thus far can be made public. And if not, why not?
I'll post on this thread any info I get.
There is a Dawlish town council meeting scheduled for this coming Thursday (26th).
I have just looked at the agenda and there is nothing concerning the Lawn Working Group.
So if anyone knows anything concerning the future of the lawn (like when the public consultation will be taking place) please can you let the rest of us know.
Thanks.
Now here's a thought that's come to me
As I sit with my fruitcake and nice cup of tea
That the lawn is a place for a bit of a 'do'
Where those of one mind,
Should they feel so inclined
Can blow bushels of raspberries straight at the EU
If I had my way I would turn the Bandstand into an open theatre with backstage area and make it available for local bands, performers, choirs and drama groups. It would be the focal point of Dawlish to bring people together. The lack of use and the limitations of the bandstand breaks my heart, it could be so much better.
A word of caution concerning any future development (or not) of the lawn.
To state the obvious - money is needed.
As I understand it, the funding for any development of/on the lawn will come from developer contributions by way of CIL (Community Infrastructure Levy) payable to TDC who can then pass on 15% of the CIL received from housing developments in Dawlish to Dawlish Town Council.
So...... if for any reason the house building industry stalled then there would be no CIL and hence no money/much less money for any lawn projects until and unless the house building industry picked up again.
I'll guess we'll just have to wait and see what impact Brexit (whatever form it takes)has on house building around here.
DATES, TIMES, LOCATIONS - PUBLIC CONSULTATION
Dates and timings for Dawlish Town Council, Lawn Working Group Presentations For public feedback Sat. July 28th Manor House 10.30 – 2.30pm (Council Chamber) 7.00 – 9.00pm Wed. Aug. 1st The Strand 12.00 – 3.00pm Fri. Aug. 3rd St Agatha’s Hall 3.00– 7.00pm Wed. Aug. 8th Cockwood Village Hall 3.00 – 7.00pm Fri. Aug. 10 th Holcombe Village Hall 4.00 - 7.30pm Sat. Aug. 18th St Mary’s Hall 7.00 – 9.30pm (Dawlish Warren) Fri. Aug. 24 th Manor House 2.00 – 6.00pm (Council Chamber)
I thought they had already had a consultation!!!!!!!! SO for what reason are they now trying to get another one.
Is there a similar situation regarding BREXIT where they had a ref, it didn't go the way that some would have liked and are still trying to get another ref.
When there is an election, most accept the result, what is so different to the two situations mentioned above?
Why can't councillors kick it into touch and get on with more important matters?
They are trying to get a consensus on what the future of the lawn might be given that the earlier proposals, from the previous consultation, proved contentious.
Public notice about dates, times and locations of this consultation on page 27 of today's Gazette plus an article on page 4.
People complain when there’s a perceived lack of transparency. People complain when there is obvious transparency. Good grief!
“They” aren’t trying to “get another one”. It’s not about votes - that has already happened and the result was overwhelmingly in favour of a playpark somewhere on the lawn. These presentations will relay the results of the Lawn Working Groups hard work in fine tuning the original proposals. I’m looking forward to attending one of the presentations, and hope that plenty of under-60’s do likewise.
Overwhelmingly in favour of a playpark? Really? Surely it should be more like 'of those who voted, a majority expressed a wish for there to be a playpark on the lawn".
For context it would be useful to be reminded of how many voted in total, and of that number how many expressed a wish for there to be a playpark on the lawn.
@DEEDOODLE should be able to tell us.
Just found this:
In July and August 2016 the Teignmouth and Dawlish Community Interest Company asked people in the street in Dawlish questions about plans to build a play park for children under 8 on The Lawn in Dawlish. (The idea is to build a park large enough to compete with the one in Teignmouth to bring more trade into town.).
Also available in a few places on paper, and on-line, this “consultation” concluded that "77% of Dawlish residents voted in favour of a play park on the Lawn", calculated from the results of 680 completed consultation questionnaires. However the Dawlish population is approx. 11,312 (census 2011) meaning that only 6% of Dawlish residents could be assumed as having taken part in this consultation.
When analysing the results of a vote, you can only include any percentages in that analysis that are based on the votes actually cast! And of the votes cast, yes the result was overwhelming! I don’t understand why people find this so difficult to comprehend. It was certainly far more overwhelming than another recent referendum, but of course that was different and we need to “get over it”...
Oh and Burneside, if you have incontinence issues, then maybe Tena Men might help. You’re welcome.
Councillor Foden’s petition to “Save The Lawn”, from which you pasted the above text, attracted a magnificent total of 443 signatures. What percentage is that, based upon the towns population? Exactly...
The referendum result was far more overwhelming because more than 70% of the UK electorate participated in the vote, and the number of ballots cast equalled more than is 50% of the entire UK population, including children and others ineligible to vote. It knocks that 6% into a cocked hat.
Again, failing to “get it”. The fact that larger numbers voted in that referendum is utterly statistically irrelevant when it comes to majorities. 77% of those that voted wanted a playpark somewhere on the lawn, 52% of those that voted wanted to leave the EU.
You seem to be suggesting that no votes of any kind should be judged binding unless more than a certain percentage of the electorate have voted. An interesting proposition if that’s so.
Well many Remoaners are now bitterly complaining that the EU referendum should have had a "supermajority" threshold of 66%, which would have scuppered Brexit. Which side are you on?
@Lynne, you’re not thick, so i don’t understand why the concept is so difficult for people to understand. no one here has said that the number of votes was overwhelming, just that the number of votes in favour compared to the number of votes against led to an overwhelming majority.
@burneside, which side am i on? i’m on the side that says that all votes should be decided by a simple majority. that’s why i accept the result of the brexit referendum.
@Lindapetherick, i’ve already predicted the response on here to your post.
Not sure anyone should accept the result of the referendum when the leave side blatantly broke the rules, DM. I think you are being far to forgiving.
Ahem! to get back to the play park and the lawn.
See my post on this thread dated 28.06.18 timed at 09.13
Official notice giving dates, times and locations of the working group's consultations also on page 61 of this week's Dawlish post.
TODAY - SATURDAY 28TH JULY
LAWN WORKING GROUP PUBLIC CONSULTATION
THE MANOR HOUSE
10.30AM - 2.30PM AND 7.00PM - 9.00PM
Click on this link for more information about the Lawn Working Group
http://www.dawlish.gov.uk/lawnworkinggroup.php
The above public event and the other public events scheduled until the end of August will be an opportunity for the public to express their views on what the group is proposing. The lawn working group is actively seeking public participation.
There are also static displays at Open Daw, Tourist Information Centre, the Library and The Strand Centre.
Survey forms are available at each of the venues and on Survey Monkey.
Sorry can't help. I can't find one either. It was the newspaper article that mentioned survey monkey.
TODAY - WEDNESDAY 1ST AUGUST
DAWLISH LAWN WORKING GROUP PUBLIC CONSULTATION
THE STRAND CENTRE, 12 NOON - 3PM
'Visions of the future of the Lawn' by the Dawlish Lawn Working Group ais currently at the Library. This includes a questionnaire so please come and have your say in what you think is the best way forward with this.
TODAY - WEDNESDAY 8TH AUGUST
DAWLISH LAWN WORKING GROUP PUBLIC CONSULTATION
COCKWOOD VILLAGE HALL 3PM - 7PM
TODAY - FRIDAY 1OTH AUGUST
DAWLISH LAWN WORKING GROUP PUBLIC CONSULTATION
HOLCOMBE VILLAGE HALL 4PM - 7.30PM
https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/back-future-old-world-charm-1891948
Next public consultation is this coming Saturday (18th August) at St. Mary's Hall, Dawlish Warren 7pm - 9.30pm
- WARNING please note - form does not distinguish between park on the lawn and other suggestions e.g bicycle path and new bandstand, so if you agree with improvements you are in fact condoning approval for playpark, so that statistically the outcome could be that working group can say a high percentage of people agreed with "improvements"
I'm sick and tired of hearing about this bloody playpark. I am against it period!!! At one time I might have agreed that a playpark maybe, just maybe might a good idea. However I believe all these so-called public consultations are smoke and mirror's by the council. I believe the council will do whatever they want. So lets rip up all the trees and plant life around the tourist centre and the wall that surronds it. Not a thought for the wildlife that inhabit this area for shelter which has become natural habitat. Wonderful flowers that are planted around the area and it is wonderful to sit around this wall when all benches are full. I have written once more to the council with a photo that I will look directly onto the plastic swings and whatever else they want to throw onto it. It will be an eye saw. Put the money into expanding the playpark at the manor. These so called consultations are worded in such a way that it favors the playpark. People of Dawlish you are being conned into accepting this.
Cllr Wrigley was spouting in the press the other day that without some form of regeneration "the Lawn will die". I would like to how he can state that so unequivocally. This consultation is sham, just as all consultations are. I have no doubt that the decision to build the playpark has already been made.
I have asked both on this forum and in the local press for reasons why there should be a playpark on the lawn. I asked this because whilst I am genuinely open to persuasion I have yet to hear an argument that will convince me. There was no response on this forum and no response in the letters page of the Gazette to my question.
At the moment the only arguments that I have heard for a playpark on the lawn do not convince me. The first is that it will bring more people into the town. I have previously explained why this argument, as far as I am concerned, does not hold water. A second is something along the lines of 'there's all that space there - so let's build on it". That doesn't wash with me either.
Rare event that it is, I have to say that I agree wholeheartedly with Burnside's last two sentences in his post above.
And on the subject of consultations. I vividly remember one of the Cllrs on the working party, before that person became a cllr, telling me that planning consultation events were okay as long as those attending were aware that actually they were planning information events.....
With regard to the flower bed being destroyed. Via the 'future of the lawn' questionnaire I have asked that before any action is taken that a survey gets done of the flower bed area to ascertain just how much, and what sort of, wildlife it supports. If you have similar concerns you could also ask for the same thing.
Here are some notes I made when I attended one of the public consultations about the future of the lawn:
Cllr Wrigley made a point of saying that what is out for public consultation are suggestions only. What is being proposed is not a done deal.
The cycle path will happen though and it will go across the lawn. The question is where? and how? across the lawn. The cyclepath is aimed at leisure cyclists not the lycra clad.
Projects need funding and need to fit in with each other and enhance Dawlish.
Playpark - will need capital funding and then an amount put aside each year towards maintenance/repairs/replacement. A playpark lasts for about 10 years.
The new playpark is smaller than the one proposed back in 2016 (and which was proposed to be sited between the bandstand and the bowling green). The new playparak area is proposed to be sited at the busier end of the lawn, near the toilets, opposite the TIC where the flowerbed is presently located. It will be aimed at up to 12 year olds. It will be vintage and railway themed.
The market area will be moved further up the lawn to the bandstand location. A market street will be formed linking the Brunswick side of the lawn to the Strand side.
The bandstand will be replaced by a Victorian/Edwardian style one.
Further suggestions:
exercise equipment around the lawn.
a mini TIC at the Barton car park.
signs to the Manor Park area where there will be picnic tables and an additional play area
But no mention whatsover of it possibly needing to become a post Brexit communal food growing area.
https://www.dawlish.com/thread/details/46061
TODAY - SATURDAY 18TH AUGUST
DAWLISH LAWN WORKING GROUP PUBLIC CONSULTATION
ST MARY'S HALL, DAWLISH WARREN 7pm - 9.30pm
TODAY - FRIDAY 24TH AUGUST
DAWLISH LAWN WORKING GROUP PUBLIC CONSULTATION
THE COUNCIL CHAMBER, THE MANOR HOUSE
2PM - 6PM
Please note this is the last of the scheduled public consultations
There is a new thread running on Eyes of Dawlish about the proposed playpark.
Someone who was a town councillor at the time has posted that the 2014 playpark proposal (taking up most of the lawn between the bandstand and the bowling green) had received planning permission.
As I cannot recall any such thing, and, having checked with others it seems neither can they, I would be very interested to have details of this alleged planning permission.
Here's part of the posting: "in 2014 those of us on the Town Council produced a scheme and got planning permission for a great scheme on the back end of the Lawn,".
So lies continue to abound everywhere. Why bother to vote for anyone when all they do is tell lies in order to get your vote?
I believe what is being referred to is the application submitted for the new bandstand / cultural pavilion, which included plans for a play park...
See this webpage
Click Documents relating to this application available here
go to page 6, and then click on Block Plan - Friday, May 9, 2014 - REVISED