General Discussion
Majorp it's unlikely Bournemouth use ANPR to enforce their car parks and your FOI request will no doubt confirm that. It does not mean they cannot use it though so long as the use accords with Govt guidance. I'm suprised you're asking them considering you know everything.
plod, you are getting clever in taking others around in circles, but in a thread you poasted earlier "Bournemouth Borough Council has an ANPR "approved device" that can be used for parking enforcement under the Traffic Management Act 2004. The approved device certificate number is PADM 058. The device is currently used to enforce bus stops and school keep clear markings. There is no law that prevents Bournemouth Borough Council from using the approved device to enforce their off street car parks under the Traffic Management Act 2004 should they want to. If you think the law does prohibit this approved ANPR device from being used to enforce Bournemouth's off street car parks under the Traffic Management Act 2004 then show us that law rather than keep making baseless claims and taking us around in circles."
That probaly gave others the impression that Bournemouth was using or is permitted to use ANPR in their off street car parks. Further in that thread you state that, "There is no law that prevents Bournemouth Borough Council from using the approved device to enforce their off street car parks under the Traffic Management Act 2004". First you need to explain to others what PADM 058 means.
Give a man enough rope and he will hang himself
PADM058 is the "approved device" certificate number assigned to Videalert RDS which is a ANPR CCTV system. I've never said Bournemouth or any other council currently use ANPR to enforce their off street car parks. What I've consistently said is that contrary to your belief, some ANPR systems are certified as "approved devices" for use under the Traffic Management Act 2004 (one example is in black & white below) and can therefore be used to enforce council regulated off street car parks if a council decides it wants to do so. The Secretary of State has approved its use in the council's civil enforcement area. Council regulated off street car parks are within the council's civil enforcement area. If they were not, their CEO's could not serve PCN's in any of their car parks. As far as I'm aware Bournemouth BC only use it for now, to enforce on street but this could change at any time.
http://videalert.com/bournemouth-borough-council-takes-action-stop-parking-problems-outside-schools/
And I have asked you consistently, to explain to me and others how it would be possible to use that certified device for enforcement purposes in OFF STREET P&D car parks, owned by a LA
So far all you have demonstrated with others backing you, is that you are right that ANPR CAN BE USED in off street P&D car parks owned by a LA
Until you can do that, all that you have placed on this site is a load of baloney, that appears some others have been sucking in.
I am telling you for the last time that it is not possible to use ANPR for enforcement purposes. Tell everyone how it is possible.
I know the reason wy it is not possible, but let it come from you to show how it is possible.
Plod explained what it could be used for in his first post on 6th Jan. Plod don't waste any more of your time on this. No one else is.
I will also add that there is strong talk to stop using ANPR/CCTV for buslane/gate enforcement. it is to do with it costing LA's to much money and the DVLA are involved, As you are so good regarding ANPR and it's use, perhaps you can explain why ANPR/CCTV is not such a good idea to enforce using those approved devices.
Lisa is back again, so perhaps lisa could explain where plod has not.
HOW CAN YOU ENFORCE OFF STREET CAR PARKS WHICH ARE PAY AND DISPLAY OWNED BY A LA?
IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT IS SAID IN THE TMA 2004. HOW DO YOU DO IT?
THAT IS THE UNDERLYING PROBLEM -----------------HOW DO YOU DO IT?
I visit a uni in South Wales a private company enforce car parks and on street parking with ANPR. How it is done is by linking the machines you have to enter your reg no. to the camera. What I do is get the person I am picking up to wait on the footpath they jump in and I drive out. I have never had a ticket so I presume there is a given time period for those who just drive in and pick up without stopping. Staff have permits, again linked to some central computer as do the disabled, they obtain a permit. The technology is out there, it just needs someone to refine it and without a doubt it could be done and for one, I say the sooner the better. So let's take any street... a disabled person parks and they would be able to scan their badge and a ticket would be produced as the National Trust now do. You scan your membership card to get a ticket.
lisa problem as with others, they cannot answer a simple question and until they do they will all believe that ANPR can be used in LA P&D car parks when they cannot be used in those situations at all for enforcement purposes. If plod told you the stars are purple then according to your beliefs they are.
You keep saying Plod is wrong but have yet to prove it or even provide us with any reasonable cause to doubt him/her. I suggest you put your money where your mouth is and fully explain with supporting evidence why Plod is wrong. Until then, your arguments remain so entirely based on bluster and so utterly devoid of merit.
lisa, everybody including you think that what plod is saying is creditable but it isn't.
There is no charge to park on the zig-zags outside of schools but it is a contravention if you do and you will therefore (if ANPR/CCTV) is deployed in the area to capture those parked in contravention, will probably receive a pcn in the post.
There is no charge to drive in a bus lane or through a bus gate, but it is a contravention if you do and you will therefore (if ANPR/CCTV) is deployed in the area to capture those driving in contravention, will probably receive a pcn in the post.
There is a CHARGE to park in an off street car park set out in a TRO, so how would an ANPR/CCTV device deployed in the car park, know that you have contravened something?
If you drive into a private car park where there is no charge Morrison's in Teignmouth as an example, you agree to a contract and if you violate that contract you will get a Parking Charge Notice as opposed to a Penalty Charge Notice for being in violation of the terms and conditions in that car park. If you overstay the time in a non paying car park, that is where the ANPR will grab you. The only way that you can be charged with breaking any of the other terms and conditions, is by physical observation by someone walkig around the car park. Sainsbury's at Exeter Road Dawlish has no ANPR/CCTV at the moment, so you will often see someone walking around that car park to see if anyone has violated the terms and conditions. Some time ago, I mentioned on this forum, "ghost tickets", nobody querried it and no one asked what they were. As it is well known that only 95% of those issued with a parking ticket,will appeal, you can see how easy it is to issue ghost tickets and for them to get your money.
Whether it is a LA owned car park or a private car park they both dangle a carrot and offer you a discount if you pay promptly, people sooner pay promptly than go through all the hassel of appealing.
Having said all that, I will now ask you again. HOW WOULD IT BE POSSIBLE TO ENFORCE A CONTRAVENTION IN A P&D CAR PARK WHICH IS OWNED BY A LA?
If private parking companies are able to use ANPR to detect parking contraventions then it is equally possible for a council who uses ANPR to do the same. Most of the parking contravention descriptions below can be detected using an approved ANPR device. Especially so if the pay & display machines require reg numbers to be inputted and are linked to the same computer system as the ANPR device(s).
I don't know why you are obsessed with this as no council I know of actually uses ANPR to enforce their off street car parks and so your focus on it is unlikely to lead to any refunds. I got involved because you made two inaccurate claims.
1. No ANPR system has been approved by the Secretary of State (for DfT) for use in council owned off street car parks.
2. Councils cannot legally use ANPR to enforce their off street car parks.
I have shown that some ANPR devices are approved by the Secretary of State and I've directed you to the relevant legislation that shows that the use of approved devices (ANPR or otherwise) by councils to enforce PCN's is only restricted in the case of on street issued PCN's not off street ones. You don't accept it. Fair enough, that is your choice. I'm not against you. I'm just trying to make you aware of the true facts. Three examples from below where ANPR could be used.
81 Parked in a restricted area in a car park. This contravention has nothing to do with whether a charge has been paid. It can just rely upon a camera spotting a car parked where it is not allowed to.
92 Parked causing an obstruction. This contravention also has nothing to do with whether a charge has been paid. It can just rely upon a camera spotting whether a car is parked obstructing either other cars or pedestrians or obstructing fire escape routes.
80 Parked for longer than permitted. This contravention can apply whether a charge is paid or not. It relies upon a camera spotting via the registration number at what time a car entered the car park and at what time it left.
You just keep asking questions majorp. No supporting evidence, no rationale, just bluster and questions. It's about time you started providing the answers to your questions if you want us to to find you credible. I don't think you know the answers which is why you keep asking Plod and now me and is why you have also asked Bournemouth Council to provide the answers with your FOI request.
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/anpr_in_your_car_parks#outgoing-726233
How can a camera in a private car park detect anything other than you over-stayed the permitted time. It timed you in and timed you out, if the mathmatical difference takes you over the allowed time, expect a ticket.
How would a camera know that you had violated 81 or lets say 85, 87 or 94, 95, 96 or how about 70.
The only thing the camera can detect is a vehicle passing the camera one way and sometime later, passing it the other way. (Or if it is a police operated ANPR which is linked to a central computer, it will know if the vehicle is taxed, insured or MOT'd) Take the time of one pass from the time of the other and it will know how long you have been in that car park. Thats fine where there is no payment to park as I have explained above becaue you would have breached the terms and conditions of that car park. And the terms and conditions are a contract, there is no such contract in a LA owned car park.
It would have to be a pretty smart camera to detect anything more than an over-stay. I did explain that above regarding Morrison's of Teignmouth.
1. No ANPR system has been approved by the Secretary of State (for DfT) for use in council owned off street car parks. FOR ENFORCEMENT PURPOSES. There are too many problems on the enforcement front but nothing just to manage the car par park. It will see you in and see you out, that's management not enforcement.
2. Councils cannot legally use ANPR to enforce their off street car parks. HOW CAN THEY enforce anything other than what I have said. I have a sign outside of my house saying, "BEWARE OF DOG". I have no dog. If the SofS grants permission to use ANPR in off street P&D car parks owned by a LA, for enforcement purposes, HOW DO THEY DO IT? Granting permission is one thing, carrying out that permission is a different ball game.
ANPR cameras are linked to a central control unit that is monitored by people. If a car is seen parked in an area of a car park where it should not be for example, then a PCN can be served by post based on evidence gained through the ANPR approved device. Its works the same way as ANPR used for bus lane and box junction enforcement. Those ANPR cameras are monitored by people and those people decide whether cars are contravening or doing something in the bus lane or box junction that is permissable like making a permitted turn.
This is just going around in circles and becoming repetitive and so I'm withdrawing. Its not my fight.
Lisa, I keep asking you questions to see if you can answer them. I know the answers but it appears you and your peers do not and that is why you do not answer because you can't. All I get back is rubbish in the belief that you are right and I am wrong. And because of that your beliefs are what they are in that ANPR can be used to enforce off street LA owned P&D car parks, when they can't do that as there would be no purpose for it.
It is one thing having the possibility of using ANPR in LA owned P&D car parks (as has been said) but it is another thing to obtain driver details from the DVLA. So there is no point in any LA using ANPR for enforcement purposes if they cannot find out who comitted a contravention.
Below is just one letter I have received from different sources. I have only redacted parts but have left enough for you or anyone else to write or email those bodies for confirmation if you require further proof that this letter is authentic.
Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency
Strategy, Policy and communications Directorate
Longview Road
Morriston
Swansea
SA6 7JL
Phone:
David Lidington MP
Fax:
Textphone:
Email us at:
@dvla.gsi.gov.uk
Via e-mail
Website:
www.gov.uk/browse/driving
@parliament.uk
Your Ref:
Our Ref:
Date:
4 March 2015
Dear Mr Lidington
Thank you for your email of 24 February to Oliver Morley about the disclosure of DVLA data to a local authority for use with their ANPR system for car park
enforcement. I have been asked to reply.
DVLA is able to disclose vehicle keeper data to Local Authorities for their parking enforcement activities that take place under the Traffic Management Act 2004 (“TMA”).
You asked about the legislation that applies. I can confirm that the relevant legislation can be found in Regulation 27(1)(a) of the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002 that states
“The Secretary of State may make any particulars contained in the register available for use – by a local authority in England and Wales, for any purpose connected with its activities as an enforcement authority within the meaning of Part 6 of the Traffic Management Act 2004.”
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The power allowing the Secretary of State to make data available in these circumstances is a discretionary one.
The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007 state that Local Authorities may impose penalty charge notices if there is evidence of a parking contravention either from information given by a civil enforcement officer as to conduct observed by that officer or evidence recorded on an approved device. An approved device is defined in s92 TMA as a device of a description specified in an order made by the appropriate national authority. ANPR is not currently an approved device and therefore Local Authorities cannot use such devices as sole evidence of a parking contravention for enforcement under TMA.
DVLA is therefore currently not able to disclose vehicle keeper data where Local Authorities are using ANPR for parking enforcement under the TMA. Robert Goodwill wrote to Local Authorities on 16 September 2014 to explain this.
And I also have the letter from Robert Goodwill MP
The approved device certificate for PADM058 (posted above by Plod) dated 2017 clearly makes nonsense of relying on a letter dated 2015.
In spite of what plod is saying to convince others that he is right and I am wrong. As you know I made a request to Bournemouth Council about the use of their ANPR. Because plod has said they have approval to use ANPR in there car parks, that was not true either.
Readers will note that I have asked one specific question and there has been no answer to it. Even if there was aproval to use ANPR in LA owned car parks with P&D facilities, how could it be used.
This is the reply back from Bournemoth today:-
Further to your request for information received on 16th January 2018 I can provide the following information.
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How many off street car parks do you own in Bournemouth? Full information on our car parks is available on our website www.bournemouth.gov.uk
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Of those car parks, how many are enforced using ANPR cameras? None
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Do you use ANPR cameras for enforcement purposes in your car parks? No
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If you do use ANPR cameras in your car parks, which car parks are they used in? n/a
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How does enforcement work using ANPR. n/a
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If none of the above apply, do you use ANPR for any other purpose? ANPR is available at one of our multi storey car parks. It is used for permit purposes to allow holders easy access to the car park, calculate fee payable when paying at exit, and monitor whether a vehicle is recorded as in or out of the car park to avoid pass backs.
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I hope this clears things up and a point to note. (forget the bullet point, it won't go away) The thread started out as "Transfer of Parking tickets" and ended up talking about something totally different.
Here we go again. Round and round the garden like a teddy bear.
Their answer is exactly as I said it would be. That they do not use CCTV/ANPR in their off street car parks as the basis for gathering evidence to send out penalty charge notices under the Traffic Management Act 2004. See my first post above from 25th Jan.
Just because they don't do so does not mean they cannot and no where in their answers do they say they cannot. Their full reply to you is available for public viewing https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/457065/response/1106321/attach/html/3/11030%20P%20Harry%20whatdotheyknow%20ANPR%20in%20car%20parks.docx.html
Their answer to: do you use ANPR for any other purpose? is incomplete. They use ANPR on street to enforce certain parking contraventions as can be seen in the link http://videalert.com/bournemouth-borough-council-takes-action-stop-parking-problems-outside-schools/
There is no need to keep firing off pointless and costly (to council tax payers) FOI's. Particularly as the validity of their answers is dependent on the competency of the person replying and you frequently tell us how incompetent council & Govt Dept staff are.
If the use of CCTV/ANPR is not allowed by law to be used to enforce local authority off street car parks, just show us that law. Simples really!
Keep digging.
plod has followers of note.
I have tried subtely to explain by examples given.
And because plod will still not answer the question posed he appears to be getting away with his beliefs.
He say's:- "Just because they don't do so does not mean they cannot and no where in their answers do they say they cannot."They cannot because they don't know how to use ANPR cameras in LA off street P&D car parks for enforcement purposes. If plod and others can show how it could be done, then we will all be happy. Perhaps plod could answer a simpler question :- " why is it that private parking companies are using ANPR in the car parks that they have authority to control with permission given by the landlord, but LA's cannot do the same."
Yet again you fail to name the law.
I've already explained in my previous post above from 27th Jan what parking contraventions could be enforced by local authorities using approved cameras in their car parks. Cameras are either monitored live to spot a contravention or a person is tasked with reviewing recordings to spot contraventions that have occurred. Local authorities have 14 days from the contravention date to apply to the DVLA for keeper details where enforcement is based on evidence provided by an approved camera, so there is no great rush to review recordings.
The answer to your new question is not complicated.
First of all local authorities can do the same but choose not to. Local authorities have an army of civil enforcement officers that enforce on street and are therefore available to be uitilsed to enforce off street as well. It is cheaper to get these officers who are already employed, kitted out and provided for, to check any off street car park that is on their foot patrol route, rather than purchase, erect, monitor and maintain CCTV/ANPR cameras.
Private parking companies do not have an army of on foot enforcers to utilise and to employ them, kit them out and provide rest and toilet facilities etc, is in the long run more expensive than using CCTV/ANPR cameras.
Secondly, the Secretary of State for Transport has issued statutory guidance recommending that camera enforcement should only be used by local authorities to enforce where it is difficult, sensitive or impractical to enforce using an on foot civil enforcement officer. Most of the time enforcing an off street car park is neither of these and so it would not be appropriate to use cameras to enforce.
However, there are times when using an on foot civil enforcement officer is not practical such as late at night in multi storey car parks that attract rough sleepers, drug users, drunks etc and there is a real risk of physical harm to an on foot officer, whether they are male or female. If violence like seen in this clip can happen in the day time to an on foot officer, it is likely to be more frequent at night. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYklZmJavqI
Now, stop grasping at straws and show us the section of law that you say would be broken by a local authority using Secretary of State for Transport approved CCTV ANPR cameras to enforce in their off street car parks. Stop evading by asking further questions. Doing so just exposes you as a fraud.
plod, thatis the biggest load of rubbish I have heard for a long, long time.
I do hope that others will wake up to the fact that you do not know what you are talking about.
I just can't believe such nonsense, but as I have said, "you have your followers who have been sucked in by it".
Yet again more bluster and yet again you fail to direct us to the law that you claim exists. The others are intelligent enough to consider a debate and decide which side is backed by rationale and evidence and which is not. Your side is not. That's down to you and your poor unsubstantiated arguments. Nobody's been sucked in, you just suck at proving your point.
majorp says it is rubbish but provides absolutely nothing to prove it. If using DfT approved ANPR in council owned car parks to serve PCN's is against the law there must be a law that prevents it. So majorp
majorp once relied upon his fellow cohorts at pepipoo.com where he was known as Bluedart. You can view publicly his 185 pages of posts going back to 2004.
but even the site moderators lost patience and terminated his so called life long membership in 2016.
It's guaranteed that he has contacted some of his fellow cohorts that share his hatred of local authorities. But obviously none of them can provide him here with the knockout counter punch he so longs for to caress his ego. Any previous success he has had is down to their knowledge not his own, hence all his questions in this thread seeking answers from me. He likes to claim previous success as his own but he was, is and remains just a stooge.
13 continuous years of pettiness and anger over avoidable parking fines. What a miserable life. Poor guy needs a hug, to let it go and move on.
S oto plod and HIS cohorts, lisa especially who has taken the bait. The law has been staring you both in the face. And because neither of you had the ability to answer quite resonable questions (you just went off in a tangent and produced rubbish that had nothing to do with ANPR). Below is just a small extract from the DVLA, which demostrates quite clearly why it would be impossible for LA's to use ANPR cameras in their car parks. It would be no point in catching someone who had committed a contravention, if they could not find out who it was.
The DVLA’s letter appears to be a reaction to the use of ANPR camera technology by a number of local authorities to enforce car parks in a manner akin to that becoming common in the private sector. Off-street camera enforcement is not permitted under the TMA, so the use of ANPR required the use of contractual terms and conditions.
The DVLA’s letter states: “It has come to our attention that you may have removed some car park enforcement operations from the Department [for Transport’s] statutory civil enforcement scheme in the Traffic Management Act 2004 (TMA), and have instead elected to enforce through contract law as a private landowner.”
The DVLA asks councils to complete a questionnaire asking for site names; whether they are managed under contract, byelaw or other legislation; how long they have been managed in this manner; whether a sub-contractor is used; and if DVLA data is used to enforce the site.
Last September transport minister Robert Goodwill wrote to all English councils warning them that if they used contract law to enforce car parks they would no longer have access to DVLA data.
This is becoming so tedious having to keep correcting your spin on things.
Some councils were attempting to by-pass the 3 appeal stages of civil parking enforcement under the Traffic Mamanagement Act 2004 by cancelling their off street parking places traffic orders and using contract law instead (like private parking companies) to enforce penalties.
Robert Goodwill got wind of this and issued a letter advising councils that he did not consider this proper and that where councils use contract law the DVLA are unlikely to release keeper details. Note that he did not fully commit to saying there was absolutely no chance of obtaining DVLA details. For only a court can decide that. The letter has absolutely nothing to do with the use of ANPR/CCTV and its use to enforce parking penalties under the Traffic Management Act 2004 and so it does not assist your argument.
If under the Traffic Management Act 2004 it is against the law to use DfT approved ANPR/CCTV to enforce council owned off street car parks then just show us that law majorp. Until you do, all you have is snippets and hearsay.
plod also say's"If under the Traffic Management Act 2004 it is against the law to use DfT approved ANPR/CCTV to enforce council owned off street car parks then just show us that law majorp. Until you do, all you have is snippets and hearsay."
He keeps on asking for the law and yet he is so good at finding things that doesn't matter but cannot find the law that does. Dear oh dear. If as plod keeps on proclaiming that ANPR cameras are the best thing since sliced bread and that it is possible that they could be used to enforce parking contraventions in LA off street P&D car parks, why are they not used? After all with council tax soon to go up and LA's always looking for new ways to make money, and purportedly ways to save money, so why don't they use (as it is possible according to you) use them? It is not because Godwill told them they can't, it is not because Theresa May said you can't. So what is it that stops them?.And don't keep asking me to show you the law, it is staring you in the face.
10 Feb 2018 11:16 post
Letter from Dept of Transport... assert, warn and comply.. send in the storm troopers.
Last paragraph 'accountable to their electorate' obviously the memo got lost in the post.
Also, nice to see the same old felons stirring the proverbial pot here.
?
Elvis, you are not being picky, you are absolutely correct. However, I now feel the time has come to say....I'M SPARTACUS!!!!!!
plod, the circles are of your own making.
Good old Dusty, I think you will find these few words just apt.
Like a circle in a spiral
Like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning
On an ever spinning reel
Like a snowball down a mountain
Or a carnival balloon
Like a carousel that's turning
Running rings around the moon
Like a clock whose hands are sweeping
Past the minutes of it's face
And the world is like an apple
Whirling silently in space
Like the circles that you find
In the windmills of your mind !
It's a terrible storm outside, oh what a night.