General Discussion

Brexit

Oh no it isn't!

For the first time in years a reduction in immigration exactly what i voted for and we havent even left yet.

@DC24601

Oh yes it is!

Look out, it's behind you! (or is it in front, difficult to tell at the moment).

Peter Pan could tell you where 'it' (the croc) is Cassandra - you just have to listen out for the sound it makes.

Tick    tock. 

The question is.............. who should play the pantomime dame? Donald J Trump or Boris Johnson? 

Or maybe it's a Whitehall Farce?

From the front page of today's i newspaper. 

"Hammond (that's the Chancellor of the Exchequer) says Britain should pay EU £50bn even if trade talks collapse - and admits Cabinet hasn't discussed type of Brexit the UK will seek from Brussels"

and

"Brexit Secretary claims government hasn't yet looked at Brexit's impact on the economy........or on anything else".  

The dame should be played by Jean-Claude-Yuncker and the rest of his cronies can fill in when needed.

The farce, pantomime, call it what you will, continues.

Today we are told that there is now an agreement that there will be regulatory alignment between us and the EU. (Irish border problem resolved).

So are we going to have the same regulations then as the EU? But no imput on what those regulations will be?

And if we want a free trade deal wouldn't we need to have the same regulations anyway?

I'm beginning to feel like I've fallen down a rabbit hole.

I'll be seeing white rabbits next.

Anybody who thought Remainer Theresa May would live up to her "Brexit means Brexit" promise is an idiot.  The establishment has got what it wanted.

Baron Hardup (Cinderella's father) could be played by Nigel Farage? 

• • 'Why should my family suffer': Nigel Farage is accused of ...

    Daily Mail - 5 days ago

    As an MEP, the former Ukip leader will be entitled to an annual pension of £73,000 when he reaches the age of 63. He is currently ...

    • Nigel Farage won’t give up his £73,000 EU pension

      Metro - 6 days ago
  • 

    Nigel Farage admits he will keep his £73,000 EU pension, ...

    Mirror - 16 hours ago

    Nigel Farage says he intends to keep his £73,000 pension from theEuropean Union, saying: “Why should my family suffer?” The ...

    • Nigel Farage derided as a hypocrite for revealing he will not give up ...

      International Business Times - 13 hours ago

   

  See more news for Nigel Farage EU pension

• Nigel Farage refuses to give up EU pension: 'Why should my ...

  www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-eu-pension...

  Nigel Farage has refused to give up his EU pension after Brexit, asking: “Why should my family and others suffer even more?” The former Ukip leader was asked on ...

   

• Nigel Farage: It's not hypocrisy to take EU pension - BBC News

  www.bbc.co.uk/.../nigel-farage-it-s-not-hypocrisy-to-take-eu-pension

  Nigel Farage told the Andrew Marr Show it would not be hypocritical to accept a £73,000 EUpension.

   

• Nigel Farage criticised for saying he will keep EU pension ...

  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/03/nigel-farage...

  Nigel Farage has sparked outrage by refusing to give up his taxpayer-funded EU pensionafter Brexit, asking: “Why should my family suffer?” It is ...

   

• Nigel Farage will take £73,000 EU pension ‘for sake of ...

  https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nigel-farage-will-take-73-000...

  Nigel Farage will claim his £73,000 taxpayer-funded pension for being a member of the European parliament so that his family does not “suffer even more”.The for

   
•  
•  

And what will the other mep's get? The same, less, more or nothing. 

Will all the pensioners living in the sun in Spain, Greece, etc now lose there winter fuel payment.

Pensions - ah yes, it will be interesting to see how that one pans out.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pensions/article-4899796/Pensions-British-expats-STOP-without-Brexit-deal.html

and do those expat pensioners in warmer climes still get the winter fuel allowance?

• Winter fuel payments to 100,000 expat pensioners to be ...

  https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/457423/Winter-fuel-payments...

  Winter fuel payments to 100,000 expat pensioners to be scrapped saving almost £17 million TAXPAYERS will save almost £17 million a year after winter fuel payments ...

   

• Winter Fuel Payment scrapped for Portugal's British expats

  https://algarvedailynews.com/news/4266-winter-fuel-allowance...

  Bad news indeed for British Expats in Portugal, France, Cyprus, Spain, Greece, Malta and Gibraltar as the UK government has put in motion specific legislation to stop ...

   

• MPs fight back against expat winter fuel allowance cuts ...

  www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/expat-money/11355524/...

  MPs fight back against expat winter fuel ... meaning of winter to axe expat fuel payments' ... should be either scrapped completely or at ...

   

• North Cyprus News - Scrapping of Expat Winter Fuel ...

  www.lgcnews.com/expat-winter-fuel-payments-scrapped

  Expat Winter Fuel payments will be scrapped in 2015 in countries whose average temperature is higher than the UK's warmest average.

   

• Can expats in France have our Winter Fuel Allowance back ...

  www.thisismoney.co.uk/...expats-France-Winter-Fuel-Allowance-back.html

  We Brits in France lost the Winter Fuel Allowance because ... Winter Fuel Allowance back, as it was scrapped due to ... means-test Winter Fuel Payments even ...

   

• Winter fuel allowance for expat British pensioners to be ...

  www.expatforum.com/britain/winter-fuel-allowance-for-expat-british...

  Winter fuel allowance for expat British pensioners to be scrapped. ... Winter fuel allowance for expat British ... we will link the Winter Fuel Payment to ...

   

• Winter fuel payments to 100,000 expat pensioners to be ...

  www.pensionersforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=6454.0

  Winter fuel payments to 100,000 expat pensioners to be scrapped saving almost £1. UK Pensioners Forum - Your forum for all OAP issues. Email: contact@ ...

   

• Winter fuel cut could be illegal, hints EU official ...

  www.surinenglish.com/20130814/news/spain/winter-fuel-could-illegal...

  Many are angry at the move to scrap the Winter Fuel Payment for British expats in Spain. :: SUR

my emphasis in bold red:

2. Eligibility

I did metion before here and in the local; press  that we would not leave the E.U and the chances gave odds against  32 to the power of 32 which is increasing all the time..

Teresa May who I gave more credit for obviously than she is worth.should stand down. Certain Conservatives are notable by there absence and comments.

As for theresa May It reminds an old  quote you have been here too long in the name of God go

or something like it

Go and be replaced by whom?

Robin Hood? (aka Jeremy Corbyn) 

Surely the conservatives are not so scarce of any who have one ounce of  leadership quality.If this is true then these

lovers should not be in Parliament. 

People bang on about Farage's penison, but at least he served a purpose and we are getting some kind of Brexit, without him we would be shackled to the corrupt EU forever.  Some of his speeches in the EU parliament were corkers and had Druncker, Schulz and the rest squirming in their seats.

And let's not forget all the MEPs & commissioners past and present who will be getting their EU pension, like Mandelson and both the Kinnocks.  They've had a pretty good existence at the expense of the rest of us.

Yes but they haven't been whingeing on about how awful the EU is, have they? That is the difference between them and Baron Hardup.   

Spot on burnside me i would have told the EU negotiaters to stick it a long time ago as always it's the EU way or no way and remember they don't want us to leave and will do everything they can to make these negotiations as difficult as possible.

I see Michael Gove is on maenouvres.

I think he should be cast as King Rat (Dick Whittington). 

And i will add if previous goverments of any colour had curbed immigration we wouldnt be were we are today as i believe immigration was the single biggest issue with the out voters.

Oh and I wonder who would be cast as the villain of the piece. No doubt a nasty foreigner from over 'there' somewhere.

Bet his initials would be E and U.  

Now here's the thing Leatash. I've heard it said that when it comes to future immigration all may not be as under control as some might like to think.  

Ex-Commissioners are simply not allowed to be critical of the organisation, for fear of losing their lucrative pension, the EU has got them gagged.

Lord Mandelson is not allowed to criticise the European Union if he wants to keep hold of his £31,000-a-year pension as a former European Commissioner, The Daily Telegraph has learned.

...European Union rules show that if he speaks out against Europe as a former Commissioner he could be stripped of his pension altogether.  

Documents seen by campaigners show that Lord Mandelson and other Commissioners have to abide by certain obligations 

"both during and after their term of  office".

One of these obligations as a staff member of the Commission is to maintain a "duty of loyalty to the Communities".  The rules also note 

that "an official has the right to freedom of expression, with due respect to the principles of loyalty and impartiality".  If they fail to 

demonstrate loyalty to the EU, Lord Mandelson can be "deprived of his right to a pension or other benefits", the rules say.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/4996440/Lord-Mandelson-must-remain-loyal-to-EU-to-guarantee-pension.html

It will be interesting to see what the likes of Mandelson and Kinnock have to say when the Brexit legislation reaches the House of Lords.  They certainly won't want to be upsetting their paymasters.

They'll have no need to criticise the EU. The anti EU lords will do that.  

And on the matter of Baron Hardup  ............ http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/ukip-leader-nigel-farage-euro-3012708

It seems he and his cronies readily bought into that goose and its golden egg.

I have no problem with Farage claiming legitimate expenses for his work in Brussels.  He is a thorn in the EU parliament's side, for which I applaud him.  While we are on the subject of EU expenses, it is widely recognised the system is rotten to the core.  This article is from 2009, no doubt the figures today are much higher.

MEPs have been quietly clocking up hundreds of thousands of pounds a year in expenses without so much as showing a receipt.

And the perks are astonishing. On top of a basic salary of £83,282 a year (representing a huge pay rise for UK MEPs from June onwards), 

£41,573 in "transition payments" when they leave office, and pension rights of up to £30,000 for a single five-year term, MEPs can claim an enormous £363,000 a year in expenses – not a penny of which requires a receipt.

Jens Holm, one MEP campaigning to reform the system, tells how he naively went to present receipts for his travel expenses when he first arrived in 

Brussels, only to be told off by the European parliament's secretariat, who said: "We're not interested in your receipts"

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/may/27/expenses-meps-european-parliament

No wonder so many of our politicians wanted to jump onto that particular gravy train, which happily is now coming off the rails.

So makes you wonder just how much more the rhubarb and custard brigade have made/are making from the EU and which none of us know about (except them of course). 

Jean-Claude Juncker is the Big Bad Wolf  

Michael Gove: The British people can change Theresa May's Brexit deal at the next election

In a thinly-veiled swipe at the agreement the Prime Minister reached with Brussels following lengthy negotiations, the leading Brexiteer said voters remained "in control" of the process.

As I said above, Govey's pantomime role is as King Rat.

Do they sell fudge at funfairs?

And how long before this first stage agreement turns out to be a bit er.............. Wishee Washee? 

My question when are the remainers going to get over losing or are they going tp winge for the next 10 or 20 years. My theory about negotiations the EU are making life so difficult for the goverment in the hope a general election will be called and a Labour goverment will overturn the brexit vote and keep us in they dont want us out and will play dirty to acheive that.

This mess is the work of the Tory party, not those who would rather we remain in the EU. Anyway, weren’t people of a certain ilk whinging about being in the EU for the 40 years since we joined?? 

A Labour government, under the leadership of the democratically elected Jeremy Corbyn, would not reverse the decision of those that voted in the referendum. 

Er...excuse me. UKIPPERS/Leavers and fellow travellers whinged for quite some years about our being in the EU.

What short memories some people appear to have.  

What's good for the (mother) goose is good for the gander. 

Nominations now open for the role of Pinocchio.

Candidates must be good at telling lies. 

aren't the current government making it more difficult for themselves than anyone else could.

Tory's will make sure they are ok, even if they lose the battle - rest assured. You must have noticed how many times Mrs May has uttered the words, "for all the nation".

Just like "God save the queen", why can't it be "god save all of us".

Would "heaven help us" be an acceptable wording for you Majorp? 

YEP

Casting: Latest News

Lynne productions is now proud to announce that Brexit Secretary, David Davies, will play Simple Simon.

Open auditions for Irish Leprechauns to follow shortly.

The Daily Mail and Brexit supporters seem to be angry with the sovereignty of the UK Parliament...

Yes, I hear lots of boos and hisses coming from their direction.

There's just no pleasing some people.

They won, I wish they’d get over it...

Jingo bells

Jingo bells

Jingo all the way

I sincerely hope Sarah Wollaston gets deselected from her Totnes seat before the next election.  She was happy for the Tories to fund and organise her campaign to win the seat, then turned her back on the party last night.

How dare she want to uphold the principle of the UK parliament being sovereign!

If she feels so principled about things, then she can stand as an independent at the next election and fund it all herself.

Just like all those principled Tories did (not!) who rebelled against John Major's government?  

Like Bernard Jenkin for example In John Major's 1992–1997 government, Jenkin was one of the "Maastricht Rebels" who defied the partywhip to oppose the Maastricht Treaty. 

Ah yes, those treaties like Maastricht and Lisbon which took us ever deeper into the EU without anyone being asked if we wanted that.  I clearly remember Gordon Brown avoided putting his name to the Lisbon document in the grand signing ceremony with other EU leaders, instead he did it separately all by himself, as though he was somehow ashamed to be seen signing it at all.

I thought it went to the UK parliament. 

Which is our sovereign decision making authority.

You’re correct Lynne, the Treaty Of Lisbon was indeed ratified by the elected UK parliament.  

As Burneside knows, Gordon Brown was unable to attend the public signing due to having to attend a select committee meeting in the House of Commons - which I would have thought that Burneside and his ilk would think takes priority, given that the sovereignty of the UK parliament is so important. 

The Lisbon Treaty, or to give it its proper name the EU Constitution was initially rejected by both the Dutch and French electorates in referendums in 2005.  This sent the EU into a panic and caused a temporary abandonment of the constitution, but, true to form, it was revived a couple of years later as the Lisbon Treaty.  The architect of the EU Constitution, Giscard d’Estaing, freely admitted the Lisbon Treaty was the same in all but name, although written slightly differently in order to try to avoid those troublesome referendums across the EU.  There was a clamour across the whole UK political spectrum for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, but an arrogant Gordon Brown brushed that aside.  No wonder he skulked off and signed the treaty in private.

It is exactly because of this kind of subterfuge that we find ourselves in the (welcome) Brexit position today.

Speak for yourself, Mrs C.  I personally hope that the political career of each and every one of these traitors is destroyed.  They were not seeking a meaningful vote, they are out to thwart Brexit by any means possible.

I wouldn’t dare speak for anyone but myself. I’m not one of those extremists that wrongly rants about “the will of the people”. 

How can elected politicians who are standing up for the sovereignty of the UK parliament be branded “traitors”? That

makes no sense. Neither does you wishing them be destroyed (#999). 

I would imagine though that many Irish people would call the DUP MPs traitors to Ireland...

Brexit will happen, that is a fact (despite the referendum not being legally binding). However the terms of Brexit will now have to be agreed upon by the UK parliament. Surely that’s a good thing?

Neither does you wishing them be destroyed (#999). - What does that mean, Mrs C?  You truly are a strange woman.

Keyboard warriors have been arrested for less. But I see that you've edited your original post to add “the political careers of”.  

Nice deflection though Burneside...

Advocating that these traitors are politically destroyed is not a crime, Mrs C  Are you special needs?

But getting back to the point of parliament having to agree the Brexit terms, this is a ludicrous demand.  It could mean the negotiations get extended by years, ultimately leading to Brexit being abandoned.  But let's face it, that is exactly what Remainers want to happen, isn't it?

Edit:  You are getting ever more bizarre Mrs C.  I have not edited my post of 20:58 in any way.  Serious question; have you been drinking?

So, we have a Brexiteer saying that the sovereignty of the Uk parliament is not what his Brexit is all about. What could it be about then, I wonder? #foreigners

You edited your original post as well.  You destroyer you...

Mrs C you are a liar.  I can see I will have to start taking screengrabs of my posts just to prove how deranged you are.

Oh, I’ve just spotted that you’ve written “are you special needs”. 

Classy. 

And?

 In what world do you think calling people “special needs” is acceptable? I realise that you do this to deflect from the points being raised, to which you have no answer, however this is a new low. Even for you Bernard. 

I am not deflecting anything.  And I genuinely do believe you are not the full shilling.

I’m definitely the full 5 pence, since well before decimalisation.  You’re the one that has turned this thread around to be about me, because of your inability to address points being raised without resorting to insults. Ironically,when we were admitted to the EEC, we were known as ‘The Sick Man Of Europe” for lots of good reasons. 

I was going to suggest that another player in this satirical pantomime of mine might be David Cameron who could play Little Boy Blue.

But as this thread is now turning into a bit of a carry on between two players I think I'll leave them to get on with it.

However, I do reserve the right (or should that be write?) to return to the carry on theme sometime in the New Year.

Look out for Carry On Brexit.  Coming to your screen sometime soon.

Happy Christmas

This country was called the sick man of Europe because we'd suffered decades of industrial strife, where the unions to all intents and purposes ran the country.  

Industry could not move forward because of the restrictive practices imposed by unions.  It culminated in the infamous "winter of discontent" of '78-79,

when, amongst other things, uncollected rubbish was piled high in the streeets, and bodies went unburied because council workers were on strike. 

Things only began to change when Thatcher swept to power and imposed long-overdue trade union reforms. 

Despite all the howls of protest from Labour and the unions when the reforms were pushed through, as far as I am aware, Labour did not repeal a single piece

of the legislation when Blair took over in '97.

Thatcher has been demonised by Labour, but she did them a great favour by pushing through necessary reforms that their union paymasters

would not allow them to do.

It was Thatcher who turned this country around, not the EEC/EU.

Although thinking about it, I might introduce a new pantomime character called Last Word Larry.........

Hi, Larry here. Shut that door Everard.

We were called The Sick Man of Europe. because we were bankrupt. Housing was falling apart. The power went off regularly. People worked, if they were lucky, in dank, dark , dangerous conditions (often) with limited rights and the constant fear that the out of step and backward organisations that employed them would go bust or lay them off. 

Old outdated industries, the last knocking of our industrial past were staggering to an end, we were still crippled by post war debt and a realisation we’d been economically insulated by a now departing Empire. 

Europe saved our butts. It actually made us great again. Look at this country now... bright new developments everywhere, deprived areas regenerated, regions reliant upon industries no longer sustainable refurbished, tidied and new business models in place, nasty old schools and colleges replaced with sparkling new state of the art buildings, The City stronger and more globally important than ever... to say nothing of your rights to work safe, get paid right and be protected from unscrupulous employers massively improved. 

And they did all this for us even whilst you and your ilk bitched and whined despite us being there because A LEGALLY BINDING REFERENDUM WAS WON to take us into the EEC for forty odd years. 

So yes, I’d rather be an important part of something than an irrelevant lone nothing. But obviously you wouldn’t. I guess being an irrelevant nothing is very much your comfort zone.

If all of the above is so good, perhaps LARRY can tell everyone why there are more people than ever going to food banks (and that is even when they are working) and why is there many many more, almost following suit?

There were people that were better off when we were blacked out, they were called the suitcase brigade.

Oh dear, Mrs C, you do have a vivid imagination regarding life in Britain before the Common Market.  It reads like something out of a Charles Dickens novel,

the only thing you missed out was the workhouse.  Of course, you know it was nothing like that.  Do you really believe employment protection

laws only came about after 1973?  Do some research, dearie.  And as I remember, the only times the power went off was when the miners were

on strike again, for the umpteenth time.  Please don't try to distort history, because some of us were around to remember it for real.

FYI, we did not have a referendum to take us into the EEC, Edward Heath did that for us, and it was only after he was kicked out of office that

the referendum for continued membership took place.  Of course, we had only been in the Common Market for two years and the full horror of the EU

to come was not apparent then.

Enjoy your new-found life outside of the EU, you should be thanking the 52%.

Looks like Tweedledee and Tweedledum have cast themselves into the pantomime.  

They do like to quarrel so.

But which one is Dee and which one Dum?

From Alice Through The Looking Glass:

"I know what you're thinking about", said Tweedledum: "but it isn't so, nohow". 

"Contrariwise" continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't , it ain't. That's logic."

Quite.

Poor old Nigel Farage has been whining to the media today about him being broke! The only food bank he’ll be using will have at least two Michelin stars...

I would actually give two f***s about his predicament, despite him being a hypocritical, vile and utterly racist pig. However times are hard, what with Brexit just around the corner. So sadly I’ve got no f***s to give...

It was Nigel Farage that made David Cameron give us the EU referendum due to the popularity of UKIP.

We all owe Nigel a lot for rescuing the country.

It's a shame that May is the most useless negotiator in history.

OMG! It really is topysy turvy, role reversal, pantomime time.

(The British PM being blamed and not the EU).

And if Nige is skint he could always take up work in a care home or some such similar occupation.

Apparently there are quite a few vacancies in such places (and the NHS) due to EU immigrants returning to their country of origin.   

We should be looking after Nigel we owe him a debt of gratitude for forcing the goverment into a referendum and giving us brexit well done Nigel or maybe it should be Sir Nigel.

Is this being skint?

lives in a £4m townhouse in Chelsea and has been taking a salary as an MEP for south-east England since 1999. He recently said he would not give up his annual pension from the EU, understood to be worth £73,000 a year.

The monthly pre-tax salary of MEPs under the single statute is €8,484.05 (£7,500) a month, according to the European parliament website, the equivalent of about £90,000 a year. Recent official statistics revealed the average weekly pay in the UK, excluding bonuses, is £478, equal to about £25,000 a year.

Anyone would think dear old Nige is the only one on the take. What about the likes of Hague, Cameron and many other prime ministers. And nige is nowhere near what they get. £30,000 per hours speech isn't a bad little earner.

Well there you are then. He could go on the speaking circuit.

And if doesn't work out he could always apply for a job as a barman........