General Discussion
If you voted Independent and on that Independent platform that candidate won office would you expect them to function and behave as an Independent Councillor?
What if a year into office that candidate became a member of a party that you voted against in the election? What if a year into office they now believe in the principles and values of the party you oppose. Would you feel cheated?
What if their campaign and work in office is so closely aligned with those of the party you oppose, that the term 'Independent' becomes meaningless?
Can they still claim to be an Independent Councillor if in practice and principle they wholeheartedly believe in a political party?
At constituency level - wouldn't a MP doing the same trigger a bye-election?
Most Independent Councillors emphasize that they have no political affiliation - They seem to grasp the meaning of 'Independence'.
So why do some councillors blatantly disregard those who elected them on and Independent platform in the first place?
Would you be angry?
And should they make their change of allegience public?
Why keep the electorate in the dark?
I wanted to know which independent councillors represented what kind of politics - as 'independent' is an ambiguous term. Does it mean left, right or centre? What are their principles and values, what contribution have they made to their community before or prior to being elected. What is their job or previous career and how is that relevant? etc.
What are their views on local issues, like food banks, austerity, education, health care, etc.
I went on the Town Council website and looked at the Councillors' profiles. Very few had written a short description about themselves.
Most Tories and both Lib Dems only provide their contact details. Which tells me nothing - but as they belong to a national party I at least know where they sit on the political spectrum.
Which is why I'd only vote Independent in town council elections.
But I needed more information about them.
The Tories, who have wriiten something, largley tell me how many children they've sired and whether they play golf or how many years they've lived in the area.
Fascinating as all this is, it tells me nothing really about them as councillors.
In any case I wanted to know about independent councillors.
Only one councillor had written a good description; Cllr Tamlyn. It tells me everything I need to know.
I contacted the other three councillors, Cllr Lowther sent me a draft to ask my opinion. It didn't need any editing and he swiftly posted it on the DTC website, that was last week. It also tells me everything I need to know.
Clr Almond sent me an email which made explicit where he sits on the political spectrum, etc. I imagine this will form the basis of his Councillor biography, should he choose to post one.
You can view the councillors here;
http://www.dawlish.gov.uk/members.php
These councillors emphasized the fact that they have no political affiliation or membership. That they are truly independent.
To them it was evidently important to state this point.
What prompted the post? The email response of the fourth 'independent' councillor to my question 'What is an independent'?
I asked if the Councillor would edit the email response and post a Councillor bio on the DTC website for the public to view. I also asked if they would continue to use the term 'independent'.
I'm still waiting for a reply, it has been almost 2 weeks now....
I think it is only right that we continue to ask questions of our representatives whilst in office.
We've just lost two decent independent councillors - if independent candidates come forward, then the same questions should be asked of their perception of the term 'Independent'.
We need to know who represents our views and what factors might influence their decision making in office.
@Indy Scot, thanks for your detailed reply, really helpful. i'll take a look at the information.
Got the Lib Dem flyer for the General Election; Isn't that Independent Councillor Alison Foden photographed standing behind Maria Chadwick and holding the famous Lib Dem yellow diamond?
We had an ex Labour candidate as leader of Dawlish Town Council after being elected as an Independant. If your into politics how can you be independant when they all pee in the same pot. They only stand for election to satisfy self interest.
Well declarations of interest, ill-conceived email responses and unfortunate photos amount to a comedy of errors that don't help their case one bit.
I conducted a little survey while walking round town this afternoon and asked 28 local people who i knew if they could name the mayor not one knew his name shows how interested folk are in the town council or politics come to that.
@leatash - i do not doubt what you say for one moment. those of us who are interested in politics (both local and national) will be aware of who is who and what is what. but those not interested in politics, probably haven't got a clue who their mp is (or was to be technically correct) let alone councillors.
Politics for the non political is like sport is for me. It, and the people involved with it, just doesn't register. I do not live in the sporting world. And others do not live in the political one.
I'll give you an example of my non sporting world. I was in Exeter on Monday and I started to become aware that a lot of people were wearing shirts and hats and stuff to do with the Exeter Chiefs. Now I do know that the Exeter Chiefs are a rugby
team. But I didn't have the first clue as to why all these people were gathering.
True.
Well that makes two of us Lynne my only sporting interest is F1 but i wouldn't leave a great view to rush home and watch it.
@leatash If a stranger came up to me and started questioning how much I knew about anything I would say no idea and walk on just to make them leave me alone...
@SickOfIt, what? Even if they just asked you for directions?
And you preach politeness between one another elsewhere on this site?
@SickOfIt the comment was ironic given you preach politeness, i feel that's kind of obvious.
It is obvious you mean that you don't like being questioned by strangers. As you'd like to be left alone.
Which is even more ironic.
The turn out at voting time says it all about how the people of Dawlish feel about politics I believe the last vote won by councillor Clatworthy turned out to be from only 39% of the population. I dont see how anybody could even count that as a victory really
@FredBassett the turn out does speak volumes about how the people of Dawlish feel about politics
But can you blame them when local politicians are turncoats? And Westminster if full of fraudsters and a Tory cabinet full of millionaires.
The Tories represent the rich, only the misinformed will vote for the Tories on June 8th, and that definitely includes those those who've taken the Brexit bait.
Well i am proud to have voted leave why did i vote leave one reason only immigration and the only party that will deliver an end to free movement are the tories its that simple for me.
as @Carer posted on another thread:
"When the Tories knock on anyone's door, why not ask them:-
What have you done to our Police Force? (You all moan about the lack of Police)
What are you going to do about our Armed Forces as they have been vastly reduced since the Tories come in?
What are you doing about the NHS as it is in such a mess now?
And let's not forget about Education.
The list is endless.
So then, you all have the chance to do something about it but will you? NO.
The tories will again sweep in and in a years time, you lot will all be moaning about the state of the NHS, lack of Police in the town, cuts etc etc etc. and putting the blame on someone else."
@leatash click on this link for labour's manifesto and then look at what it says on pages 27/28 with regard to immigration.
http://www.labour.org.uk/page/-/Images/manifesto-2017/labour-manifesto-2017.pdf
But Lynne Corbyn is in favour of open borders and he tends to get what he wants when he gets his left wing cronies behind him Trident he would scrap it in a heart beat and will if he can and of course when did anyone ever stick to there manifesto. At least i know the tories want closed borders and no free movement my vote this time is who will deliver a hard brexit, thats it nothing more nothing less.
"when did anyone ever stick to there manifesto. At least i know the tories want closed borders and no free movement my vote this time is who will deliver a hard brexit, thats it nothing more nothing less".
So....if, according to you, political parties don't stick to whatever is in their manifestos then by your reasoning neither will the Tories stick to what is in their manifesto!
and btw
Free movement of people will end after Britain leaves the European Union, Jeremy Corbyn has said, as he vowed a Labour government would implement a “managed” and “fair” migration system if elected in four weeks’ time.
The difference is that a proportion of Tories have wanted Brexit for the last 20+ years so i am hedging my bets that the same MPs will be re-elected and put May under pressure for a full Brexit with Australian type border controls. I am afraid that managed and fair is fluffy Corbyn talk and could mean anything Lynne a bit like Trident when he is asked about it all he will say is we have to talk about it when we all know he is against renewal. In my opinion May will deliver a Brexit i will be happy with for me this is a Brexit only election.
How can i be selfish i voted leave and thats what i would like and May is the best bet to do it am i not entitled to cast my vote as i wish.
Can someone tell me please what the Conservatives say in their manifesto about immigration.
I imagine it would be something along the lines of it being 'fair' and 'managed'.
Interesting as this is, it has gone somewhat off-topic. The original post was about a Independent councillor being a Lib Dem party member. Their declaration of interest confirms this http://https://www.teignbridge.gov.uk/media/4428/cllr-foden-alison-register-of-interests.pdf as does naively being photographed with a Lib Dem sign, on Lib Dem candidate Marie Chadwick's General Election flyer.
@leatash if you think all politicians aren't trustworthy, why on earth have you decided to vote for the tory party? they're the worst by a country mile!
Why would anyone trust May? Plus we've already voted in an EU referendum and the outcome was to leave. Brexit is all she's got.
apologies @Andrew i acknowledge that this thread is now going way off topic but as we have now seemingly hit another one - brexit - i thought the article found via this link might be of interest to some.
It was published in one of the national newspapers on Sat morning - therefore before the events in London the same evening. Hence it only references the terrorist attack in Manchester.
no need to apologize @Lynne, i'm not really bothered. plus it's election time and i supposed it islinked as it's about a question of trust.
Interesting article and yes I agree - What lots of people don't understand is that being in the EU and closely allied with the US has meant that the establishment has been able to create a facade that we're not a nation in post-colonial decline.
And that's exactly what we are experiencing. The only wealth created is in the capital and it does nothing for the regions and ordinary hard working citizens and our government supplies arms to the Saudis who in turn fund and supply arms to the Wahhabists.
Of course May isn't going to tell it how it is. She's not concerned with protecting British citizens, she's concerned with keeping the money making neoliberal machine going as investment bankers like her husband do very well out of it.
I personally think this nation would be better off not attempting to play the world's Policeman, we're in a post-colonial hangover. We're not living in the Victorian Age any more. De Gaulle was right.
If Scotland becomes independent and Nortern Ireland unifies with the Republic, only Wales will be the remnant of British Imperialism along with a few overseas dependencies/dodgy tax havens.
But then I hate the term 'British' and it's imperialist overtones. It's just a political construct that is coming to the end of it's lifespan.
@leatash how we leave is pretty clear, i don't believe in this 'soft' or 'hard' brexit rubbish. if you're in the eu you abide by certain rules and policies such as open borders which has many benefits which of course are never mentioned in our right-wing media. most jihadists operating within the uk are 'home grown' and influenced by isis operating out of territory in syria and libya - and not eu countries. eu countries have the same problem, yet they don't blame the uk and other european nations.
If you reject the rules and policies of the EU, which 52% of those voting in last years referendum did, then you can't expect to cherry pick the EU policies that suit our national interests and discard those that don't.
May is acting as if she's Queen Victoria with a global empire behind her, it's embarassing and shows what a massive ego the woman has. EU negotiators viewing her many U-Turns won't expect the process to go very far.
Her 'strong and stable' rhetoric looks like a personal mantra, in that it looks like she's trying to convince herself. Keep telling yourself that Theresa, many of us can see you're weak and insecure.
Psychologically she's a conflicted person.
In no way should she lead an entire nation, especially given that we now live in the Brexit Britain.
I fear it isn't only Theresa May who has acted/is acting as if the British Empire still existed.
I remember hearing people during the referendum debate say that all the heavy industrial work of the Midlands/the North/South Wales has gone. Yes I would agree it has. But..........the implications from those voices was that it was all the fault of the EU and that therefore it we left the EU all those jobs would come back again.
They won't.
The comment below, along with many others, is to be found below that article I gave a link to.
It makes me sick to the core that the little Englanders are voting for the Tory scum because of Brexit, when you have Tory MPs saying in public that they're pleased that there are food banks in their constituency. This is 2017! Food banks are a result of Tory policy to cut taxes for their wealthy pals at the expense of the ordinary people of our country. The Tories are vile vile people. We're going to hell in a handcart thanks to Theresa Mayhem and her selfish cronies.
I find it funny how folk have forgoten how all these cuts started was it not mainly the bankers who brought the country to its knees and then a Labour goverment who borrowed, borrowed, borrowed.
There were no food banks before the bankers messed up our economy i could be wrong but i dont remember any.
And of course folk have forgot the famous note from the borrow borrow spend spend labour goverment left by Liam Byrne " Theres no money left".
Seen tonight 06/06/17.
Are the tories proud to parade a poster like this less than 3 days after the London attack and 2 weeks after the Manchester attack?
What an absolute insulte to all those killed or injured by terrorists.
Is it a joke?
How very insensitive of them.
Oh, and who was it that made all the cuts to the Police and Armed Forces?
Answer BELOW!
A politician presenting things exactly how they're not. I suppose it's on-topic with the thread title.
This cartoon explains perfectly the lengths PM May is taking to make sure we live in 'a secure nation'
To save money, to pay back monies borrowed to bail out the banks, yes everybody pays and the bankers got away with it, everything, all cutbacks stem from the banking crisis.
@leatash what so this tory government sells arms to saudi arabia and may turns a blind eye to saudis funding and arming isis so our government make a dent in the deficit? and mps award themselves pay rises and all manner of perks? when everyone else's wages fall or stagnate in real terms?
So the people who lost their lives in London and Manchester did so because our government has to service the national debt???
Is terrorism just something we have to put up with now because austerity is here to stay under the Tories?
I don't suppose May and her rich backers care because it's only us plebs who get blown to pieces, mowed doen by vans or stabbed to death.
It might be adifferent story if jihadists targetted a local Duke, a rich banker or a CEO of some huge company.
Errr........ Didn't we have terrorism in this country before Islamic Jihadist's?
The Angry Brigade, the IRA, INLA, in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s to name but a few.
Please don't forget all the PFIs set up by Labour that we are still paying for. That's where the crisis in Public Services really needs addressing. Never mind re-nationalising the railways, post office, water etc. We need to buy back these PFIs (if we even can!!).
To quote wiki: "The debt created by PFI has a significant impact on the finances of public bodies.As of October 2007 the total capital value of PFI contracts signed throughout the UK was £68bn. However, central and local government are committed to paying a further £267bn over the lifetime of these contracts. To give regional examples, the £5.2bn of PFI investment in Scotland up to 2007 has created a public sector liability of £22.3bn and the investment of just £618m via PFI in Wales up to 2007 has created a public sector liability of £3.3bn. However, these debts are small compared to other public-sector liabilities."
I should also add (from Wiki): "Two months after the Labour party took office, the Health Secretary, Alan Milburn, announced that "when there is a limited amount of public-sector capital available, as there is, it's PFI or bust". PFI expanded considerably in 1996 and then expanded much further under Labour, resulting in criticism from many trade unions, elements of the Labour Party, the Scottish National Party (SNP), and the Green Party, as well as commentators such as George Monbiot. Proponents of the PFI include the World Bank, IMF and (in the UK) the CBI."
Same old story of the left: Borrow & Bust! And now you criticise the Tories for having to pay it back!!!! Jeeeeeeez!
PFI - now wasn't that something that kicked off during Conservative John Major's premiership? Pretty certain that it was.
And from what I have a read it seems the civil servants who negotiated PFI deals with the private sector were out manoeuvred by the private sector negotiators.
Wonder if history is about to repeat itself (Tories starting something off but not there not being the negotiating expertise in place to avoid this country being dumped on.)
Anyone have any idea what I might have in mind?
I'll give you a clue.
It starts with B has an X in it and ends with T.
and what about the trade negotiations that will allegedly take place after Brexit.
Wonder what and whose priorities, arch negotiator and deal winner, Donald "America First" Trump will have in mind?
@HuwMatthews2 i'll address you directly shall i?
I've reported you once already for trolling. You went silent for a while.
funny how in your absence someone called @SickOfIt harassed me on every post, much as you do.
and shortly after they went silent, low and behold who rears their obnoxious head? but @HuwMatthews2!
You're the one with a child-like grudge,
I'm not interested in anything you have to write on here, I've no time for you, stop wasting your time and mine.
Well done for reporting me. BTW I've never reported you!
I don't hide behind any other name than that on my birth certificate. Can you say the same?
Troll Child.
Ooh aren't you brave. Of course you're going to claim you don't post under any other names on this site. But why should anyone believe you?
I on the other hand have numerous pseudonyms on this site.
You have no reason to report me.
And 'Troll Child'? Now that's ironic coming from you.
Go and waste someone else's time, in fact you'd be better off enrolling in an anger management course.
Once again.......I'm not angry.
I don't care about you....or for that matter anyone else on here.....because I don't know who they are.
All I do is respond to posts. See how that works? As individuals no one on here affects me.
I am not SickofIt. You have a very conspiratorial mind.....maybe paranoia?
But as I said.... I don't care about you.
Perhaps @webmaster could reassure you.
So your parents named you Huw Matthews 2? Seriously?
Do you have an older brother called Huw Matthews 1?
Any younger brothers? Huw Matthews 3. 4, 5...
I think you do care about me really. I'm touched how you follow my threads and posts with such devotion.
@HuwMatthews2 aw c'mon don't you have a sense of humour? so you're going to write 'troll child' from now on then? makes a change from 'troll' but shows the limitations of your imagination.
and why should anybody believe you?
If you want to impersonate women that's your choice.
Maybe @SickOfIt is your (platonic) woman friend (But not your wife) - i'm sure you'd have a lot in common.
Are you going to perpetuate this pointless discussion Boyo?
1. You are a troll and you're being childish.
2. I've asked the webmaster for help in proving I'm not SickOfIt - don't really know what else I can do on that one.
3. Grateful if you would leave my family out of it (otherwise I will have to report you) but I can assure you that SickOfIt is not my wife or any of my immediate family (who don't even visit this site).
4. My mother was Welsh......I'm not.
I hope that answers your concerns fully but if not please do not hesitate to contact me.
@HuwMatthews Why do you waste your time?
1. All you 'do is respond to posts'? what to cause trouble? - you're the troll.
You've even moaned about how the Labour candidate's name is in larger font than the other candidates names elsewhere on this site and you demand 'I think we should be told'. Maybe it's a Corbynite conspiracy?? Paranoid or what?
https://www.dawlish.com/thread/details/45564
2. i know who @SickOfIt is so don't bother.
3. Twist it to appear like I'm having a go at your family if you like. It's low and pathetic.
Re: 'your woman' comment - get a sense of humour.
Re: whether your actually parents named you Huw Matthews Number 2. Who on earth would take that seriously? - get a sense of humour.
you do have a lot in common with @SickOfIt though.
4. I called you 'Boyo' as you're childish and you have a Welsh first name. It's hardly offensive.
I'm not interested in whether you or your Mother are Welsh.
I think it'd be better if we just ignore each other on this site and don't comment on either's posts.
I do care about your well-being Huw, and you probably can't help how you are, which is why this has to end and one of us has to step up.
So this is goodbye/Hwyl fawr.
@Andrew, i think you'll find huw's username has a 2 on the end because he lost or forgot his credentials to his original account -
https://dawlish.com/user/details/5300
It was most likely back when usernames had to be unique.
Re: "I think it'd be better if we just ignore each other on this site and don't comment on either's posts."
This is not how it works on the general discussion forum I'm afraid. Anyone has the right to comment on your posts.
@webmaster for clarification; i don't really believe huw matthews was ever called huwmatthews2, number 2 or huw2. or that he was one
of several brothers all called Huw Matthews or that his folks devised a numbering system to distinguish them.
I don't even know for certain if Huw Matthews is a real name and nor do I care.
I was simply using humour to address someone I've reported for trolling and who won't leave me alone. I find it's the best way to deal with them.
@webmaster i've also drawn a line under this and i won't be replying to him anymore and i've asked him to do the same. perhaps you can note this as i think it is time to move on.
@webmaster i stand by that comment;
"I think it'd be better if we just ignore each other on this site and don't comment on either's posts."
I think it would benefit other contributor's too. Whether Huw Matthews does so is his choice, he can do as he pleases. The onus is on him.
I'm just offering my opinion and from now on I will ignore his comments, I won't reply.
It should make your life easier as well.
@Andrew, you can choose not to talk to huw if you want to, but huw has every right to comment on anything you post as does anyone else.
@webmaster haven't i just stated that?
@HuwMatthews2 can comment on anything i post on this site or on anything anyone posts on this site.
I'm not asking you to censor commentary.
I'm just asking what is the point in his comments. To perpetuate a conflict? To troll? We are never going to agree or even agree to disagree.
From my perspective it is better to simply ignore him. From his perspective I don't see the point in addressing me on this site. What's the point?
@webmaster I'll leave this as a question for @HuwMatthews then;
@HuwMatthews do you think it'd be better if we just ignore each other on this site and don't comment on either's posts.
Because I do. Farewell.
You just can't leave it alone can you?
I've no idea what I've done to get under your skin so badly.
I'll continue to respond to posts as I always have.
That says it all. Suppose I were to join the Conservative party and, having remained a member for a period of time, then announced that I wouldn't be renewing my membership for the coming year, would no longer pay my membership dues, and would feel free to ignore any of the rules and obligations of membership with which I was unhappy.
However I would still want to retain certain of the perks and privileges of membership which I'd enjoyed as a member in good standing, and the party ought to grant me what I ask because I'm a person of influence and significance in the community and in consequence they need my friendship and support, perhaps rather more than I need them.
I don't think they'd take my request seriously. Or me. And I suspect Mrs May and her team, assuming they're re-elected next Thursday, will experience a similar response when they begin to put their proposals to their erstwhile partners later in the month.
The "Rule Britannia" fallacy dies hard in the psyche of middle England and in the psyche of middle England's politicians. But what might have been realistic and possible in 1855 simply isn't realistic and possible now. And pretending and wishing won't make it so.