General Discussion
Well pointed out there Gary and thats the big difference leave supporters arent freightented of getting blood on their hands and fighting for their country, unlike the lilly livered remainers who just want to sit on the fence and hand everything over to the same people who your forefarthers battled against in two world wars. Show some bloody respect for the thousands who gave their lives and get our country out of this EU mess and protect it from mass invasion.
I have tried to type a response to that a few times and can't without name calling and I won't do that ... I'll go back and sit on my fence instead
Is there a masculine form of 'stupid bint'? The Webmaster let the last one through so I know it's not breaching the rules of the forum.
@Paul - before you get excited about trade deals away from the EU, go and familiarise yourself with the democratic reputation of the WTO.
@burnside https://theholisticworks.com/2016/06/19/the-truth-about-the-late-jo-cox-mp-and-her-husband-brendan/
@robert make that article a link so easy for everyone read. If I had time I could probably rip the points apart but by the time I had done that you would've all moved on.
This article is published on an holistic website which is bullshit to start with, GM free organic supplements!!
Roberta - you know that anyone from EU member states can still go and work there?
http://www.lifeinnorway.net/move/immigration/immigration-europe/
Here it is in print has not been denied by any Consevatives or No 10
http://www.metro.co.uk/2016/06/19/david-cameron-used-jo-coxs-death-to-campaign-for-remain-5953570/
still want to back CaMoron. What a despicable, horrible, jumped up, toffee nosed jerk the guy is
Wednesday 8th June - Osborne has a disastrous interview with Andrew Neil on live television - hours later Sarah Wollaston defects from Leave to Remain
Sunday 19th June - Cameron is humiliated on a Question Time referendum special - hours later Baroness Warsi very publicly switches from Leave to Remain
This looks very much like news management by the Remain camp to try to deflect the poor headlines elsewhere. Do they think people can't see through this?
@roberta why is a holistic website writing about the subjects they are on their blog? It is peddling pseudoscience and I would be wary of their agenda.
The article is a lot of opinion too. The White Helmets don't call themselves a charity but the reports are that Jo's husband is donating to charities including the White Helmets. I searched for White Helmets propaganda and nearly ever article I found linked to the same story of the White Helmets posting a picture of the boy covered in blood from the Russian bombing that turned out to be an old photo from days before. There is one other instance of this happening I found. This isn't a good reflection on the organisation and I myself would do more research before putting any money their way. I would definitely need to see what their response was to be caught out.
I don't understand the point of the article or the conclusions the article draws. Just because these two individuals like to do good and don't always look into the organisations they support then we should be out of the EU? Because she didn't comment on an awful thing happening down the road that she couldn't comment on because of reporting restrictions anyway?
The article states "The Hell was only 11 miles from her own constituency, where white children were falling victim to a large Muslim paedophile ring – their presence in Halifax no doubt largely due to liberal and unrealistic sentiments like Jo’s"
Nowhere in the article linked to mentions white children, it says it was a girl, no race mentioned. Stretching of the truth to suit the sites agenda? This again " no doubt largely due to liberal and unrealistic sentiments like Jo’s" is opinion!
Im not learned enough to know what is true or false,peoplekeep banging on about searching so I did !!!Also I thought it may have had influence over the use of her death in the remain campaign
News management??? You're having a laugh Burneside! Have you not seen the front page headlines of today's Tory rags??? If you want a conspiracy theory to get your knickers in a twist over, you should start by looking at our newspaper proprietors...
David Cameron’s only job outside of politics was head of PR for a media company, news manipulation is his speciality.
And in a further development today, Will Straw, head of the Remain campaign has been accused of exploiting the murder of Jo Cox. Just how low will these people stoop?
Accused by the London Evening Standard. Owned by the Daily Mail.
However, this is what the article actually quotes. Which is somewhat different to Burnsides toxic diatribe. Sadly, the likes of Burneside don't want a decent, tolerant UK.
the leaked recording, he says: “We need to recognise that people have been pulled up short by Jo Cox’s death and it is now time to make a very positive case for why we want to be in the European Union… to call out the other side for what they have done to stir division and resentment in the UK.
“That is something we must all do… This is what we think is the closing argument of the campaign, reflecting all the arguments that we have been setting out for many months but also the new context that we’re in.
“What we want to say is people should vote Remain on Thursday for more jobs, lower prices, workers’ rights, stronger public services and a decent, tolerant United Kingdom.”
The Evening Standard is actually owned by a couple of Russian oligarchs who, incidentally, also owned The Independent until they closed it down.
Mrs C................boring as usual. Can only slag off people can't actually engage in meaningful dialogue.
And GT isn't much better.........what does the above comment mean? And why all the God stuff? Very bizarre!
Keep up the good work Fred and Burneside.
Perhaps you should plead for me to be banned Margaret?
Of course your posts and that of your brother (Burneside/Bernard - as informed to me this morning) don't involve any slagging off whatsoever and are totally full
of meaningful dialogue!
Mrs C, you have known my identity for two years, courtesy of a certain snake in the grass, why are you pretending you only found out this morning?
https://www.facebook.com/leaveeuofficial/videos/974259812672260/?pnref=story
Might have been 1975 but could be a speech from now
Re Mrs C...........I rest my case! Oh, and a blatant liar into the bargain.
A leap yes, but not necessarily into the dark!
Slight change to this Gary :-)
The Choice:
Business as usual and ability to change things in Europe
A leap into the dark
The whole point is, if we stay in the EU we can't change things from within, we're just one of 28. Sweden, Denmark and The Netherlands are watching our result very closely, if we go then they will be next to depart. The EU has had its day, and it's now time to wave goodbye.
I can't wait until Friday as I am a bit EU-referendum'ed out to be honest. Seeing all the far right wing crap is depressing. Fortunately, we will remain and the far right can go back into the corner again muttering to themselves on Friday.
To say that I have found the right wing views that have been expressed both nationally and locally
extremely depressing and frightening is to understate my feelings.
I can only hope that whatever the result of the referendum, a right wing pandora's box has not been opened up.
I agree with Burneside, not everyone who wants to stop wasting money on the EU gravy train is far right or even veering to the right! I know I'm not yet I do not want to see the waste of money that has gone on for far too long unchecked. We have a failing health service and an ageing population with no social care structure in place, a decrepit transport system and far too many people homeless or living in poverty. Just a few of the areas that could benefit from the millions we waste every week.
i am surprised at your comments Lynne, I thought you were better than that.
I did not say that everyone voting Leave necessarily endorsed all the right wing sentiments that have been expressed nationally and on
the likes of this website.
What I did say was this: "To say that I have found the right wing views that have been expressed both nationally and locally
extremely depressing and frightening is to understate my feelings.
I can only hope that whatever the result of the referendum, a right wing pandora's box has not been opened up."
At least Burneside had the decency to query my comment and not read into it words that I had not written.
I am surprised at your response Margaret, I thought you were better than that.
Are you the Margaret Swift who works for the government and wastes taxpayers money every day by playing computer games on your employers time? Wind yer neck in and go tend your orchard dear.
We have a failing health service, no social care, a decrepit transport system and increasing numbers of homeless and those living in poverty because of the successive governments this country votes in. Nothing to do with the EU. Coming out of the EU will do nothing to fix any of those!
Not all Brexit'ers are racists but all racists are Brexit'ers.
@Hay Day you made an account just to post that about Margaret? Do you not have anything better to do?
Does anyone know if Donald Trump has said the UK could always join up with the US if the UK leaves the EU?
Have been told that he has said that but I can't find anything to that effect.
Nope, I believe it is Margaret Swift and she's not telling the truth. Am happy to leave it at that.
Fred Bassett - my grandfather fought for a world that would support tolerance and religious freedom not supremacist bigotry.
Morty Vicker - I have discovered a lot of those facts for myself, it's a shame that the Remain campaign have been unable to get them across.
Unlike you, I do not tell lies. We all know Hay Day and Mrs C are one and the same and you are once again back to trolling because is what you do best.
I agree Remain have been very poor at getting all this across Hay Day (whoever you are) and the Brexit camp only care for speculation rather that facts
On the daily politics show on Friday i think, they interviewed a Norwegian lady about the time they had a vote on E.U.
membership.The funny thing was the threats about losing membership was so similar to the ones given to us was strikingly
similar. Each family would be £3000 odd pounds worse off .they would have no market, pensions reduced and would be isolated so much so
nobody would deal with them.
Which got me thinking would it be possible the E.U. has a department which deals with propaganda to counter the threat
of those countries wishing to Exit or being rebellious.
I see Cameron has this afternoon addressed the nation from the steps of No 10, whatever happened to the purdah rules? Anyway, he sounded desperate, highly likely the spin doctors are privy to internal polling and this is Cameron's desperate last stand.
Yes the EU has a department that deals with propaganda and it costs 350 million a week to run ... might as well add to the conspiracy theory.
We do not want to follow the Norwegian model. They have access to the single market but have to agree with the decisions of Brussels without having a say in those decisions.
I was on holiday in Norway earlier this year and I don't know if it's anything to do with not being encumbered by EU regulations but I was struck by their disregard for Health and Safety - if you go dog sledding don't expect to be supplied with helmets. Here you'd be kitted out from top to toe and signing disclaimers in triplicate
For good or bad I don't think things like H&S, pollution levels, clean beaches, workers rights etc are high on the Leave campaigns agenda but they are all EU initiatives which we have become used to, just like seatbelts. I also don't think that places like Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield, Glasgow, Cornwall etc would ever have got a a leg up from our own governments the way they did from the EU. Same as I don't think our government will ever give the necessary investment to an efficient railway in the south west.
PS I have no connection with Mrs C whatsoever!
We had workers' rights before joining the EU. Listening to some people, you'd think we lived in caves before 1973.
If you weren't a member of a trade union that could horsetrade your 'rights' you were out on your own. Ah yes, the good old days of the 70s.
I really and truly fear for workers and their rights if we leave the EU as given that I firmly believe we will have a right wing government
it is beyond me why people believe such a government would be inclined towards protecting the rights of workers.
Protecting Capital - yes
Protecting workers (Labour) - no.
And here's an irony. The Right (on the whole) want out of Europe, correct? But.....surely a central tenet of right wing politics is the free movement of labour.
I do think the rosy spectacles need to come off. The sad fact is that too many employers use the Euroean working time directive of not working more than 48 hours a week on average over a rolling 17 week period to force employees to work the 48 hours regardless of their contracted hours and for no extra remuneration. Many employees are not protected by European laws as many employers simply ignore them.
Amazing what the Tory weakening of the trade unions has done for workers' rights, don't you think?
Brace yourselves for a further onslaught if the right wing of the Tory party take over control.
For the record, Farmer Swift and co, Hayday and I are not one and the same. I know you'll say "well, you would say that", but there you go, that's up to you. I have been to Norway though. About 12 years ago.
That's a fair point Margaret but the principle has been established and it's employers not the EU that are circumventing it. T'was ever thus.
I agree Mcjrcp but the fact is workers are not protected. For all the years I have been a union activist, under both Conservative and Labour governments, it has been the same.
Since writing above comments i think it was Sunday politics and the lady was Anne Beathekt
Hope this is correct but the hype against leaving to Norway was uncanny.
As for some of these people ie Beckham and the Virgin chappy ought to spend less time
thinking of their financial interests and more about this Country.
After all most of their time is spent abroad.
Because, of course, it is vitally important to Beckham and his wife that we remain in the EU, it really affects them in their Beverly Hills mansion.
Margaret, I largely agree with your words "We have a failing health service and an ageing population with no social care structure in place, a decrepit transport system and far too many people homeless or living in poverty" and that these problems should be addressed.
You also talk about retaining the money that goes to the EU every week as being a solution for these ills.
You refuse to factor in however, the much larger value of the cash benefit that comes to the country through our trade with the EU and it markets. Leaving aside the untold benefits that immigration has provided in NHS and social care services (which BoJo and his less extreme chums have lately acknowledge) with less money to go around, these problems can only grow.
The Brexit 'budget' is a lie, a fantasy. Let's hope that the Great British public who have been watching the debates will see past the nationalist fervour and vote accordingly tomorrow - with their wallets.
An on the subject of nationalist fervour... while the Freds and the Burnesides of this country may wrap themselves up in the Union Jack and proclaim others as 'traitors', the truth is that every one of us who holds Great Britain's strengths, values and traditions dear can also proudy look to the flag.
We have been an integral and much valued part of Europe for over 40 years - and while there are considerable challenges that now need to be tackled, pulling up the drawbridge is certainly not the answer.
As we have heard in the debates, if we leave then there will be a greater chance of the disintegration of Europe (and the UK) - the consequences of which could be dire.
I think I know Fred's answer to this one but - is this blood you would want on your hands, Margaret?
So, according to Gary Taylor, if you vote Brexit that makes you a rabid nationalist with the blood of future generations on your hands.
That is just the kind of comment I would expect from a LibDem EU arse-licker. I am only thankful that his party is unlikely to see power in this country ever again.
Brexit called, they want their Blighty back.
We all know what “getting our country back” means. It’s snorting a line of that most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia
It was the woman on Question Time that really did it for me. She was so familiar. There is someone like her in every queue, every coffee shop, outside every school in every parish council in the country. Middle-aged, middle-class, middle-brow, over-made-up, with her National Health face and weatherproof English expression of hurt righteousness, she’s Britannia’s mother-in-law. The camera closed in on her and she shouted: “All I want is my country back. Give me my country back.”
It was a heartfelt cry of real distress and the rest of the audience erupted in sympathetic applause, but I thought: “Back from what? Back from where?”
Wanting the country back is the constant mantra of all the outies. Farage slurs it, Gove insinuates it. Of course I know what they mean. We all know what they mean. They mean back from Johnny Foreigner, back from the brink, back from the future, back-to-back, back to bosky hedges and dry stone walls and country lanes and church bells and warm beer and skittles and football rattles and cheery banter and clogs on cobbles. Back to vicars-and-tarts parties and Carry On fart jokes, back to Elgar and fudge and proper weather and herbaceous borders and cars called Morris. Back to victoria sponge and 22 yards to a wicket and 15 hands to a horse and 3ft to a yard and four fingers in a Kit Kat, back to gooseberries not avocados, back to deference and respect, to make do and mend and smiling bravely and biting your lip and suffering in silence and patronising foreigners with pity.
We all know what “getting our country back” means. It’s snorting a line of the most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia. The warm, crumbly, honey-coloured, collective “yesterday” with its fond belief that everything was better back then, that Britain (England, really) is a worse place now than it was at some foggy point in the past where we achieved peak Blighty. It’s the knowledge that the best of us have been and gone, that nothing we can build will be as lovely as a National Trust Georgian country house, no art will be as good as a Turner, no poem as wonderful as If, no writer a touch on Shakespeare or Dickens, nothing will grow as lovely as a cottage garden, no hero greater than Nelson, no politician better than Churchill, no view more throat-catching than the White Cliffs and that we will never manufacture anything as great as a Rolls-Royce or Flying Scotsman again.
The dream of Brexit isn’t that we might be able to make a brighter, new, energetic tomorrow, it’s a desire to shuffle back to a regret-curdled inward-looking yesterday. In the Brexit fantasy, the best we can hope for is to kick out all the work-all-hours foreigners and become caretakers to our own past in this self-congratulatory island of moaning and pomposity.
And if you think that’s an exaggeration of the Brexit position, then just listen to the language they use: “We are a nation of inventors and entrepreneurs, we want to put the great back in Britain, the great engineers, the great manufacturers.” This is all the expression of a sentimental nostalgia. In the Brexiteer’s mind’s eye is the old Pathé newsreel of Donald Campbell, of John Logie Baird with his television, Barnes Wallis and his bouncing bomb, and Robert Baden-Powell inventing boy scouts in his shed.
All we need, their argument goes, is to be free of the humourless Germans and spoilsport French and all their collective liberalism and reality. There is a concomitant hope that if we manage to back out of Europe, then we’ll get back to the bowler-hatted 1950s and the Commonwealth will hold pageants, fireworks displays and beg to be back in the Queen Empress’s good books again. Then New Zealand will sacrifice a thousand lambs, Ghana will ask if it can go back to being called the Gold Coast and Britain will resume hand-making Land Rovers and top hats and Sheffield plate teapots.
There is a reason that most of the people who want to leave the EU are old while those who want to remain are young: it’s because the young aren’t infected with Bisto nostalgia. They don’t recognise half the stuff I’ve mentioned here. They’ve grown up in the EU and at worst it’s been neutral for them.
The under-thirties want to be part of things, not aloof from them. They’re about being joined-up and counted. I imagine a phrase most outies identify with is “women’s liberation has gone too far”. Everything has gone too far for them, from political correctness — well, that’s gone mad, hasn’t it? — to health and safety and gender-neutral lavatories. Those oldies, they don’t know if they’re coming or going, what with those newfangled mobile phones and kids on Tinder and Grindr. What happened to meeting Miss Joan Hunter Dunn at the tennis club? And don’t get them started on electric hand dryers, or something unrecognised in the bagging area, or Indian call centres , or the impertinent computer asking for a password that has both capitals and little letters and numbers and more than eight digits.
Brexit is the fond belief that Britain is worse now than at some point in the foggy past where we achieved peak Blighty
We listen to the Brexit lot talk about the trade deals they’re going to make with Europe after we leave, and the blithe insouciance that what they’re offering instead of EU membership is a divorce where you can still have sex with your ex. They reckon they can get out of the marriage, keep the house, not pay alimony, take the kids out of school, stop the in-laws going to the doctor, get strict with the visiting rights, but, you know, still get a shag at the weekend and, obviously, see other people on the side.
Really, that’s their best offer? That’s the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: “ ’Ello luv, you’re looking nice today. Would you like some?”
When the rest of us ask how that’s really going to work, leavers reply, with Terry-Thomas smirks, that “they’re going to still really fancy us, honest, they’re gagging for us. Possibly not Merkel, but the bosses of Mercedes and those French vintners and cheesemakers, they can’t get enough of old John Bull. Of course they’re going to want to go on making the free market with two backs after we’ve got the decree nisi. Makes sense, doesn’t it?”
Have no doubt, this is a divorce. It’s not just business, it’s not going to be all reason and goodwill. Like all divorces, leaving Europe would be ugly and mean and hurtful, and it would lead to a great deal of poisonous xenophobia and racism, all the niggling personal prejudice that dumped, betrayed and thwarted people are prey to. And the racism and prejudice are, of course, weak points for us. The tortuous renegotiation with lawyers and courts will be bitter and vengeful, because divorces always are and, just in passing, this sovereignty thing we’re supposed to want back so badly, like Frodo’s ring, has nothing to do with you or me. We won’t notice it coming back, because we didn’t notice not having it in the first place.
Nine out of 10 economists say ‘remain in the EU’
You won’t wake up on June 24 and think: “Oh my word, my arthritis has gone! My teeth are suddenly whiter! Magically, I seem to know how to make a soufflé and I’m buff with the power of sovereignty.” This is something only politicians care about; it makes not a jot of difference to you or me if the Supreme Court is a bunch of strangely out-of-touch old gits in wigs in Westminster or a load of strangely out-of-touch old gits without wigs in Luxembourg. What matters is that we have as many judges as possible on the side of personal freedom.
Personally, I see nothing about our legislators in the UK that makes me feel I can confidently give them more power. The more checks and balances politicians have, the better for the rest of us. You can’t have too many wise heads and different opinions. If you’re really worried about red tape, by the way, it’s not just a European problem. We’re perfectly capable of coming up with our own rules and regulations and we have no shortage of jobsworths. Red tape may be annoying, but it is also there to protect your and my family from being lied to, poisoned and cheated.
The first “X” I ever put on a voting slip was to say yes to the EU. The first referendum was when I was 20 years old. This one will be in the week of my 62nd birthday. For nearly all my adult life, there hasn’t been a day when I haven’t been pleased and proud to be part of this great collective. If you ask me for my nationality, the truth is I feel more European than anything else. I am part of this culture, this European civilisation. I can walk into any gallery on our continent and completely understand the images and the stories on the walls. These people are my people and they have been for thousands of years. I can read books on subjects from Ancient Greece to Dark Ages Scandinavia, from Renaissance Italy to 19th-century France, and I don’t need the context or the landscape explained to me. The music of Europe, from its scales and its instruments to its rhythms and religion, is my music. The Renaissance, the rococo, the Romantics, the impressionists, gothic, baroque, neoclassicism, realism, expressionism, futurism, fauvism, cubism, dada, surrealism, postmodernism and kitsch were all European movements and none of them belongs to a single nation.
There is a reason why the Chinese are making fake Italian handbags and the Italians aren’t making fake Chinese ones. This European culture, without question or argument, is the greatest, most inventive, subtle, profound, beautiful and powerful genius that was ever contrived anywhere by anyone and it belongs to us. Just look at my day job — food. The change in food culture and pleasure has been enormous since we joined the EU, and that’s no coincidence. What we eat, the ingredients, the recipes, may come from around the world, but it is the collective to and fro of European interests, expertise and imagination that has made it all so very appetising and exciting.
The restaurant was a European invention, naturally. The first one in Paris was called The London Bridge.
Culture works and grows through the constant warp and weft of creators, producers, consumers, intellectuals and instinctive lovers. You can’t dictate or legislate for it, you can just make a place that encourages it and you can truncate it. You can make it harder and more grudging, you can put up barriers and you can build walls, but why on earth would you? This collective culture, this golden civilisation grown on this continent over thousands of years, has made everything we have and everything we are, why would you not want to be part of it?
I understand that if we leave we don’t have to hand back our library ticket for European civilisation, but why would we even think about it? In fact, the only ones who would are those old, philistine scared gits. Look at them, too frightened to join in." A.A. Gill.
I saw this post on Facebook by Rod Buck (I don't who he is). His post was shared by a friend of a Facebook friend and then liked by that Facebook friend. I have made my comments inline, in red.
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Had a wonderful conversation with an 18-year-old waitress in our local pub at the weekend about EU and Brexit and so on... She confessed she didn't know anything about it all, and wanted to know WHY we wanted to leave and control our own affairs again.
If he really cared about democracy and this girl forming an opinion he should have said here is what I believe but go do some research yourself. Make up your own mind.
Lynn and I carefully explained to her what life was like in England when WE were 18 - and before the EU came to control everything.
This is anecdotal evidence. We always remember things differently than they really were. Can you really blame the EU for EVERYTHING that has happened since he was 18?
That you could leave a job on Friday as an 18 year old, and have a choice of 4 or 5 more to walk into on Monday - WITHOUT nonsense like a CV. You got an interview then and there, and were told: "OK, you can have a try out - come and start tomorrow".
So CV's are nonsense and an EU intervention? The company could always treat you like shit and sack you the next day!
That the concept of Minimum Wage or Zero Hours contracts did not exist - that ANY firm offering such sh*t terms to people would never recruit ANYBODY - they would laugh, walk out the door, and down the road to somewhere better.
Absolutely not true. Most companies would pay the least they could get away with and people would fill those jobs. Minimum wage is a very good thing and a living wage is better. Zero hours contracts are good for some people. Not anything to do with the EU though.
That University was FREE - no loans, etc, you didn't leave with £50,000 of debt with a degree that could still only get you a job at McBurgers.
University fees were introduced by the UK government not an EU directive.
That a house cost two and a half times a factory wage to buy - in today's terms about £40,000 max. That you could set up home together as man and wife at age 18 or 19, and afford to do it on ONE income, not TWO. We told her that Lynn had married at 18, and could shortly after stop work and have the babies she longed for. That I married at 22, my wife was 18, and I supported the two of us while we had two lovely children in quick succession. My wife did not HAVE to work - she chose to return to nursing later when the children were grown up enough.
Prices go up over the years across everything. You couldn't build a house now for £40,000 even if you had the land and all permissions in place first. Things cost more due to inflation etc! How is this anything to do with EU or even the EU being singularly responsible?
This poor girl's eyes were like organ stops. She was comparing all this to the world SHE knew - but she had NO idea that anything different had EVER existed.
Really? Does this girl not talk to anyone over the age of 18? The world existed before 1998 - shock!
We told her that the place was NOT full or foreigners who bid up the price of houses and bid down the level of wages - foreigners to whom anything more than £30 a week is absolute RICHES, people that we can't keep out, courtesy of the EU.
The country is not full of foreigners. What are we classing as foreigners here anyway? Growing up in Birmingham in the 70s, 80s and 90s we had foreigners and a lot of ignorance and stereotypes and racism. You know what, those foreigners came here in the 60s and built family businesses. And those same people who adhered to the ignorance and racism went and bought things from those businesses (unless you were far far right). These families supported their children through education and they become the doctors and lawyers we have today.
How are the young EVER going to be able to make a sensible decision about Brexit when they know NOTHING about how life could be outside the EU?
It is dishonest and difficult to separate what has happened since Rod was 18 and what successive governments have done. We can't say if we didn't have the EU then all young people would have a job and could buy a house for £40,000.
The Remainers say that only old people want to Leave - well of course! We are the ones who KNOW how it used to be before the EU ruined everything. That life was better for ordinary people.
As already stated, you look back more fondly than what was the reality. That life was better for ordinary people? Yes if you were white and middle class! My family were poor and life was shit. My Dad worked his whole life in a factory but no holiday or sickness pay meant he had to pretty much work every day possible to put food on our table and sometimes that wasn't enough to feed us and have the electric. This was in the EU-era but this was the same pattern for my parents growing up too.
We had recessions in the UK in 1919-21, 1930-31, 1956, 1961 and 1973 (when we joined the EU). We had governments shit with money before and after joining the EU.The EU is not to blame.
Spread this please, share it, show it to as many young people as you can. They can't make a rational decision until they KNOW.
What we should be doing is giving the kids the tools they need to make rational decisions and to critically think. This is the only way we will get better politicians, where they can't lie and say shit without backing up that claim because the people are critically analysing their words.
We older people are the only ones who KNOW - we owe it to them to tell them!
You older people aren't the only ones that know. No one knows the future. We can look back on history, through the actual facts and figures and look at recent history and make an informed decision and listen to the experts. If 9 out of 10 economists are predicting dark days if we leave the EU then I will listen. They may all be wrong but I'm not an expert in economics.
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Why did I bother to post this? Because these are the same arguments I have heard again and again and it is rubbish. Because someone writes well and makes plausible statements everyone starts to beleive them but when you start to anaysis you realise it is nothing but hot air.
I have said before if you think coming out of the EU will make everything rosy then you are deluded. Get a better government in place and then lets think again whether the EU is the right thing for us. I have no problem with having an EU referendum every 10 years to make sure it is still right for us but we need to make an informed decision. Majority of people aren't prepared to make a decision now. The people saying "I don't know" are probably the most honest (apart from me of course :-))
The EU has never ever been audited, no checks on how the money is spent. Millions wasted on MEP expenses alone, the real reason most MPs want to stay in the EU! A lovely second career when they are kicked out of parliament. The saved money might not get spent on the things it should get spent on but without trying we will never know. The Remain campaign has not convinced me that the money is well spent, they have a few more hours to do so.
I saw a programme on tv last night where people in the north east were being interviewed.
I heard someone say they would be voting Leave because there used to be a lot of industry in the north east and now there isn't.
Is the EU responsible for the demise of the industrial north east?
@Gary Taylor, you are making a huge assumption there will be blood on hands! i read your post and honestly wondered what you put on your cornflakes! europe is already disintegrating, don't you watch the news or read the newspapers? being in the eu has created the mess we currently have, it has failed miserably for 40 years.
PS As a town Councillor shouldn't you be having regard for Purdah?
We need a better government, better MEPs and start to change the EU from within. We can't do that out of it! The UK has voted in UKIP MEPs who don't turn up but happily take the salary. The same people who want us out because they want seats in our parliament and the rise of the far right or the disillusioned right. Before you say not all people who vote for UKIP are ignorant and racists, you are right but those additional votes will make the difference in getting UKIP a few seats.
We have been defeated 57 times in the European parliament on new directives since 1999 and won over 2000 times. That means the government has backed the vast majority of decisions made by the EU. This doesn't sound like an EU problem but more of a UK government problem.
You've missed the mark once again, Burneside. You and Fred have effectively allied yourself to the nationalist cause by calling others traitors.
I love my country (and the symbolism that our flag holds) every bit as the next man or woman and will be proud to join others in voting tomorrow to remain in the European Union. Barring accidents, I would expect to be in the queue, peacefully alongside others who genuinely believe that Brexit is the right way forward.
This country is today struggling to come to terms with a strategic decision that should have been made by our elected government. With that responsibility ducked out of political expediency, the decision now rests on the shoulders of the voting public. I just hope we can find in the coming few days - with the referendum behind us - a nation more at one with itself.
@Margaret Swift - the media make it hard to get the actual facts as many of the news outlets have their own leanings. where is the evidence that the eu has created the mess we are currently in?
Margaret, as I have explained previously, I write on here in a private capacity. My letter to the Gazette (which has been repeated in today's edition) explains this also.
The point I make about the possible disintegration of Europe is that if we were to quit the EU, it would act as a catayst for others to do likewise. Acting unilaterally to leave would not only put us in a very poor negotiation position with our biggest market (so as to 'encourager les autres') it is almost inconceivable that a further break-up would not lead to violence. That is not a risk a country like ours, which has sacrificed so much for a lasting peace in Europe, should be taking.
Staying in the EU is not running away. In many ways it is the hard thing to do. But do it, I believe, we must.
I do not accept your hysterical claim that the UK leaving the EU will lead to war in Europe. We're back to where we started with Project Fear.
I did not say war, Burnside. I said violence. I would suggest in the future you chose your words more carefully.
As a small example, when say us and france take part in a EU funded project, when drawing expenses e.g. for lunch and both french and english worker bought a £2 pack of sandwiches, english worker can only claim £2 as per english LG rules but french worker would claim around £13 in line with their LG rules. So not only paying in more but not getting a fair proportion out aswell, individual countries should make up the differences to their workers if their allowances are more generous than others. Not my only reason for voting out but there are so many other similar issues on larger and smaller scales that people don't know about and really can't see that things are fair and on a level playing field.
Why not roberta?
It's easy to call it Project Fear. We'll only know with hindsight. If the Brexit vote succeeds, the UK border will go up between Northern and the Republic of Ireland. As if we don't have enough problems, yes let's give that hornets nest a good poke too.
The EU creates enough violence of its own. Greece has seen endless riots and violence because of EU-imposed austerity measures. All because the EU wanted as many countries as possible to join its new sparkly Euro currency and bent the rules accordingly, which lead to the collapse of Greece. The economic collapse of Italy is now on the cards, no doubt followed by Spain and others. Isn't the EU just wonderful?
Why ?Hay Day, because I am disallusioned with all politicians of all parties, and no local councillor is worthy of my vote
I gather there's been quite a rush by British born citizens who can claim dual Irish/British nationality to get an Irish passport.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/04/rush-for-irish-passports-brought-on-by-brexit-fears
Gary, as an elected town councillor you do not have the luxury of doing anything as a private citizen, you are bound by the rules of Purdah whether you like it or not. I am amazed the town clerk and the long standing councillors have not explained this to all the new councillors as they did with the previous administration.
I actually couldn't work out why your post at 07.44 was even aimed at me, I don't believe I have said anything inflammatory other than to question the value of being in the EU and the amount of money we pay in for what return? I do think you have been more than a little hysterical today, which really cannot be good for your health.
@burneside - Greece were in trouble long before they joined the EU. that wasn't why Greece failed. They had high debt before and weren't paying their debts. They had a big problem with getting taxes in. They saw a slight improvement after joining the EU and the euro but that didn't last. The Oolympics also made matters worse for the country.
We should ask why they were allowed to join the EU but their downfall was coming anyway.
Margaret, sorry, but you will need to go and read the Pirdah rule book again.
My response of 7.44 was aimed at you because you support Burneside and Fred in their 'good work'. Enough said.
This purdah thingy - if politicians aren't allowed to talk about the EU at the moment then gawd knows how many of 'em
(politicians) must be in breach of the rule!
So.....I'll take it then that they are not in breach of purdah and neither are any local politicians who participate in the debate.
Purdah ain't rocket science. Cameron was standing outside No.10, the claim being he was using a public resource to influence the public.
Gary Taylor, just for the sake of good order please confirm you're not holding court at the Manor or using their computers to post. Carry on.
To quote you, wind yer neck in Hay Day, Mrs C whoever you are. If you have nothing useful to say then don't bother.
A joke to lighten the mood ...
How many remainers can you fit in a mini?
3 because there's already a German in the driving seat ... :-)
Words fail me.
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search.aol.co.uk/aol/news
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Metro - 36 minutes agoA plane with a Vote Leave banner has been flown over a memorial service toJo Cox in Trafalgar Square. According to tweets from ...
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Huffington Post UK - 16 minutes agoPoliticians and other attendees have reacted with fury to a "beyond low" decision by Brexit campaigners to fly two planes carrying ...
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Vote Leave flew a plane over Jo Cox birthday memorial ...
metro.co.uk/2016/06/22/vote-leave-flew-a-plane-over-jo-cox...
Vote Leave flew a plane over Jo Cox ... a memorial service to Jo Cox in Trafalgar Square. According to tweets from those at the event, the plane …
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Jo Cox Memorial: Outrage After Planes Flying Brexit ...
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jo-cox-memorial-trafalgar-square...
Jo Cox Memorial: Outrage After ... .@voteleave flying your plane over the memorial tribute to Jo Cox in Trafalgar Square is beyond low. ... Back over the Jo Cox event ...
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'Leave' plane flies over Jo Cox memorial in Trafalgar ...
www.aol.co.uk/news/2016/06/22/leave-plane-flies-over-jo-cox...
'Leave' plane flies over Jo Cox memorial in Trafalgar Square and Twitter ... .@voteleave flying your plane over the memorial tribute to Jo Cox in Trafalgar Square is ...
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Vote Leave banner flies over Jo Cox's memorial in ...
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eu-referendum-brexit-leave...
Thousands of people were gathering at events in ... the slogan “Vote Leave, ... your planeover the memorial tribute to Jo Cox in Trafalgar Square ...
Her Majesty The Queen - 'Give me 3 reasons why we should be in the EU?'
Sorry Ma'am, we can think of one.
Vote OUT!
40 years of EU and it has been 40 absolutely awful years. Why would anyone agree to any more.
Tomorrow the task is simple, everyone vote OUT and same our country.
Huffington Post - American left wing bullshit online news blog owned and edited by a tree swinging, liberal, pro lesbian. Will print anything to make mainstream news. Dont make me laugh.
Still no reasons given as to why anyone should vote remain
If that is all you can come up with Hay Day then get back in your box! Your're not really very bright are you? Bit of a pathetic response!
Fred you have had enough reasons to Remain but you choose to ignore.
And what is pro-Lesbian suppose mean?
Well, the reasoned debate coming from Burneside, Swift and FredBassett has persuaded me that I should vote Leave. They might not have a clue about Purdah (sounds like a bit of a foreign word that - yuck!), but they are clearly on the same wavelength as that great statesman Farage, and that's enough to sway me. After all, I don't give a fig about our economy, our employment rights, our personal prosperity, our NHS, our children. I only care about all those Johnny Foreigners coming over here taking the jobs that us Brits don't want. Our country is full! Well the 2% of our landmass that's built upon is anyway. Pull up the drawbridge! Get into bed with Donald Trump! Vote Leave!
Mrs C has obviously been at the sherry again. It's not even worth challenging her pathetic ramblings. Come the morning she'll have forgotten she even posted anything tonight.
As per usual Mrs C is way off beam and does not reflect the integrity of the arguments presented for each side, but given his/ her bias that does not surprise me. And, I doubt he/she can even spell integrity let alone know the meaning of the word.
Ealier today I posted a lengthy piece written by AA Gill which conveys my sentiments far more effectively than I could. We're already on the 5th iteration of this thread so no need to repeat it. Nonetheless I have also given a lot of thought to the Brexit argument, not least because my old university professor Patrick Minford is one of the leading advocates for Brexit. He wrote this piece back in 2005, I'd love to know if he's thinking along the same lines as you Margaret. http://www.patrickminford.net/europe/book_index.html
Oh dear, so Hay Day denied being Mrs C but now we know the reality! Further proof he/ she is an inveterate liar? So, can we believe anything he/she says? NO! Keep drinking the sherry Mrs C!
That Swift woman is bonkers! In case anything happens to me I'm leaving a note for the police.
It is worth noting that since Gary told ME to go and read the Purdah rules at 15.55 he has not posted since. I assume he read the rules and realised he was infringing them! Silence really is Golden!
Ruth Davidson tells Boris Johnson he's peddling lies over EU referendum
“You’re being asked to make a decision on Friday that’s irreversible, you can’t change it, and you’re being sold it on a lie,”
“They lied about the costs of Europe, they lied about Turkey. They lied about the European Army. We have a veto on all those things. They’ve put them in their leaflets and it’s Not. Good. Enough. You deserve the truth. You deserve the truth!”Remain on Thursday it will be hard to avoid the conclusion that it was Ruth Davidson wot won it
Have the meds kicked in? Is it safe to come out?
May I just say 'Keep up the good work'
Over and out!
I think GT's silence was due to his being out and about delivering REMAIN leaflets and nothing to do with political purdah (and yes, what a foreign word that is!).
@HayDay - you meant to say "Over and IN!" didn't you? 
My vote is cast so thats the end of it and with only two options LEAVE or REMAIN i have a 50/50 chance of having voted for the winning side and by this time on Friday i will know.
FOR THOSE STILL UNDECIDED - PLEASE READ THIS
If you still haven't made up your mind then please vote REMAIN.
Why? Because if we vote to leave and it all goes pear shaped and there is a collective mood in the future within the country to return to the EU then.
1. All the EU member countries will have to agree to our return
2. As a new member, and as I understand the rules, we would have to change our currency to the Euro.
If we VOTE TO REMAIN we have the option of having another referendum in the future. But if we vote to leave now we do not necessarily have the option of returning to the EU sometime in the future.
Why would we want to return to the EU at a later date? The question is immaterial anyway, the whole EU project is teetering on the brink of collapse, Brexit would just give it a helping hand.
I'm surprised that Hayday was posting at 01:45 this morning. Clearly he/she isn't working a 60 hour week...
FAO Farmer Swift, how can Hayday's post at 23:19 be proof that Hayday is a sockpuppet? Please explain.
On my way now to the Polling Station. I truly hope that the xenophobes don't win.
In Mrs C's little world you are racist and a xenophobe if you care about your country. If the Remainiacs do win this, at least we will know who on here is to blame when the country goes down the pan.
According the Quitters, this country went down the pan 40 years ago. Which is obviously a load of crap. I truly hope that enough young people vote in order to nullify the votes of those Quitters who have rose-tinted specs on when they refer to the good old days. Life was crap in the 50s, 60s and 70s compared to today.
Dont know about the 50s and 60s. But I would love to return to the 70s. Had a good job with money in pocket. Out clubbing every weekend Fri Sat Sun plus a couple of nights in the pub. Beer 12p a pint served in a proper glass with a head on it. 20 benny hedgehogs and a box of swans 24p. Petrol for my 3-litre Granada 28p per gallon (not litre). Girls that looked like girls wearing dresses and heels. Not size 20 sweat shirts and leggings. Pie chips and peas that actually tasted like real food, wrapped in yesterdays newspaper. We had proper markets, good shops and most people spoke to one another face to face including the villiage bobby. 13 hole doc martins, Arington jackets and ben sherman shirts. Affordable houses cost 9k for a three bed semi with gardens back and front. We could afford to go to the big football stadiums like old trafford and the pictures. Then came the punks. Loved it
When I voted at St Agathas earlier there was some weirdo annoying people as they go to vote. Should be illegal.
I'm going to go when my mum goes to vote to stop him hassling her.
Utter low life scum.
When I went to St. Agatha's to vote an hour or so ago there was a person there asking people if they would like a "I voted remain" sticker.
It is perfectly legal.
As it would be if someone else was there handing out "I voted leave" stickers.
And as it is legal, on 'ordinary' voting days, when persons representing the different parties are
perfectly entitled to be outside the polling stations asking people for their polling numbers.
According to the polling station regulation bill you cannot campaign within a prescribed area for a polling station. As a town councillor Gary Taylor should know better.
The person wasn't campaigning.
The person was offering stickers after people had voted.
and for info the person who was there this morning wasn't Gary.
Then someone shouldn't have implied that it was Gary!
There are clear rules about activity around polling stations.
Farmer Swift strikes again!! Don't expect an apology or explanation from her though. She's far too busy and important for that!
Buried the hatchet with Ann-Marie Morris at the Manor House this lunchtime. Even then, she still had no answer as to where the cuts would fall to support the NHS upon Brexit.
But she did hint that the 'best man' to win the referendum (and take control of No10) could be a woman.
Ruth Davidson: 5/1; Theresa May: 10/1; AMM: odds anyone?
Leaving... to go to St Agatha's.
Seems there's been a shortage of rosette wearing Brexit 'meeters and greeters' at the polling stations, so she's now doubled up.
Mr T - Remember, the following are not allowed:
(a) the promotion or distribution of any literature associated with election candidates, political parties or associated organisations;
(b) the use of audio equipment, whether stationary or mobile, for the propagation of messages relating to an election;
(c) oral communication for the purpose of eliciting voting intentions or influencing the casting of a vote. (3) The “prescribed area” referred to in subsection (1)
(d) looking weird, especially in possession of a Vote Remain sticker.
Anne Marie Morris is exactly what you would expect of a Conservative MP. She turns up, says a lot and does nothing. Easier on the eye than Younger Ross though.
ATM she appears to be squeaky clean so cant see her going before the next general election. Always stands a good chance of re-election even then.
You are right Mrs C, you won't get an apology because for all I know Gary could have been there. There was another Remainer giving out stickers outside the Manor House so they have been out in force today.
Now, calm down, stop your squawking and go and have a glass of sherry.
Could someone on the Brexit side please explain (because I am genuinely intrigued to know)
why Brexiteers have been advised (by whom?) to vote with a pen rather than the pencil provided as, apparently, if they vote with a pencil they run the risk of their X being rubbed out and replaced with another one in the Remain box.
Given that millions upon millions of votes will have been cast and that the ballot papers go straight into the ballot box which then isn't opened until it reaches 'the count', please could someone tell me when and where all this rubbing out etc will take place and who it is who will be doing it?
Ta.
FAO Farmer Swift. I'm not Mrs C, I'm Hay Day! C'mon dear, get it right! So no apology to Gary for your slur, so how about an explanation for why you think Hay Day's post last night is proof that he/she is a sockpuppet?
PS I'm guessing your pathetic dig is at me. However, I don't like sherry. It's far too foreign for me...
Lynne, sadly the xenophobic conspiracy nutjobs don't have a clue.
1. All elections/referendums use pencils.
2. They'd whine anyway if ink was used because of the possibility of invisible ink.
3. Remain votes are just as likely (if not more so) to be rubbed out.
4. They're mentalists.
5. Er, that's all.
This using a pen advice - have been told that it was easy to spot an 'outer' going in to vote as many had pens in their hands.
The gullibility of some people (or many people as it seems is the case in this particular instance) is really quite concerning.
(and does make me wonder what other gullible 'lines' they may have swallowed hook, line and sinker).
Well I'm up to late. It looks at this posting the vote's are close. One thing, if the remain wins and by a small marjority it sends a strong message to Brussels and the EU that is don't mess with the UK.
J.K. Rowling Retweeted Angharad Cole
Scotland will seek independence now. Cameron's legacy will be breaking up two unions. Neither needed to happen.
@MV
you can now shut your stupid mouth and get off this forum. You and the other losers now have no voice. Great Britain will be Great once more, our children and grand children have been saved from the immergration invasion. Plus we have the bonus of several lying MPs facing being forced to resign. Congratulations to all leave supporters lets now get on with the job in hand.
So for FredBassett it was all about not liking foreigners. We're all losers this morning, because so many people fell for the lies and false promises coming from the Leave campaigners.
******!
I knew there was something I should have done yesterday.
I should have changed quite a chunk of sterling into USD and Euro.
Too late now!
If thats the way you think MV then all I can say is there are ferries leaving the south coast ports every hour why dont you go and catch one. Im sure Frau Merkel will welcome you
I'm sure she would actually.
What exactly have the Quitters won? No rhetoric wanted, just facts please.
So depressing, shall we just go the pub whilst we can afford it?
Pound down, markets down and we aren't even starting Article 50 until October because the banks asked not trigger it straightaway.
Remember what you have done you quitters (sorry leavers).
What a shame that the upper class who can afford to deal stocks and shares etc made the wrong decision and have probably lost millions. Serves them right.
As the leading pollitical heads are now admitting they have paid the price for not listening to the ordinary people.
As for those who's only defence was to call the leavers racist Madam Le Penn is calling for a similar referendum in France, and Sweden, Denmark and others will follow. All these countries want to retain their identity and not to be overrun by Muslims and Sharia law
Great to see Donald Trump and family arrive and will be great to see Adam Choudry and his followers kicked out.
If thats a racist point of view then so be it but the fact is we won and thats all that counts.
@ Gary
You resigning from council today. Told you you were in trouble remember
Ok if you think only the rich will be affected by a weak pound and falling stocks then you are the idiot I think you are.
Le Penn and Trump are horrible people and you are backing exactly the people we were against 70 years ago.
And yes I would call your views racist.
The idiots are on the losing side. Yes racist but only against Muslims and their idiology, not the europeans, americans and others that I have worked and lived with in the past for many years
Yes I did mean ideology Im working class and not great at spelling and gramma.
I think the answer to your question is pretty simple Im a Christian in a Christian country and enjoy a somewhat civilised lifestyle where my wife and daughters have equal rights and freedoms. I dont like to see our countries assets and benifits given away to third world uncivilised countries who do nothing to better themselves and havent done for years even with all the aide and handouts they have enjoyed.
Its time for change and I believe the future is looking bright its going to see some changes but I think and hope the people are taking power from the pompus, rich, self interested beurocrats who have been ripping us off for years.
I am working class too
Ok, I don't think you have actually read your bible ... ever.
People aren't taking the power, it is a fallacy. The rich will still run the country. Already the banks have decided when we are going to trigger Article 50.
It isn't only the Saltire bit of the Union flag that might end up having to be removed.
There's now a call for Ireland to have a referendum to see if it wishes to be united as one country.
Bye bye UK?
Why when we aren't leaving for at least 28 months? Surely the day we actually leave should be the date lol
Nicola Sturgeon is the next Traitor we need to shut up. Our Queen needs to have a word in her ear
Come on now people the vote has been cast and as a democratic nation we should all accept the result thats how it works. My view not a lot will change some things will change for the better some things will be worse but thats democracy all i see on here is a lot off bad losers. Both sides lied through there teeth we had the threat of a 3rd world war to the amount of money we would save folk have voted for change and have sent a message to our MPs to listen in future to the people.
Listened to Nicola Stuergeon just now.
The SNP had it in its manifesto (that it was recently elected on) that if there was a substantial
change in substance to the UK's relationship to the EU then another referendum could be called (or words to the effect).
So. Let's talk about democracy then.
1. The Scots, democratically, elected the SNP on that manifesto
2. Nicola Sturgeon is now seriously considering invoking that aspect of the manifesto that she was democratically elected on.
So democracy in action in Scotland then (just like yesterday in the UK as a whole).
So, if the Scots go for another referendum and this time decide to leave the UK, then we'll just have to accept that as well.
Yes thats true and if they do go it alone I hope they are prepared to pay financially without the support of England/Wales/NI
But the decision is theirs to take.
(and NI might agitate for a referendum as well remember).
In which case yesterday's decision to leave the EU might end up with the break up of the UK.
A political variation of Newton's third law of physics perhaps?
(for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction)
Scotland will be ok as they will join the EU after leaving the UK
I think it is the UK who will miss Scotland rather than the other way around
Our four great nations will stick together.
No reason to break up such a succesful team.
Today is a fantastic day for us all. I truly believe we have reached a turning point (calculus) we now all have a very bright future.
Fred Bassett has a wife and daughters?! Wow, they've taken one hell of a bullet for the team.
Anyway, there's no point in us Remain voters wringing our hands, the deed is done. We'll have to wait and see if Project Fear does become Project Reality.
Already:
Farage has this morning said it was a mistake to suggest that the 350 million a week would go into the NHS. Shame he's only speaking up now. Let's hope the 1.3 million difference in the vote wasn't down to believing it.
The markets and exchange rates have slumped. They will need to stabilise PDQ before irrevocable damage is done. The 'working class' do realise it's their pensions that are invested in the stock market? Hope you're not retiring any time soon or still have mortgages to pay.
Scotland and Ireland are now gearing up. I know the Welsh aren't partial to the English so let's see what this beloved United Kingdom ends up looking like in years to come.
Keep up the good work!
So explain this logic to me
According to the leavers we would save £8-15 billion a year leaving the EU but we just wiped out 120 billion from the stock market in a few hours and the Bank of England have made £250 billion available to the banks to help them cope with this. Plus we have a pound of 1985 levels.
Wiped out the equivalent of 10+ years of savings! This will have an impact.
Where is the economic sense? I know the answer will be "ra ra we are Great Britain ra ra" (my Boris impression in text).
As I have said the cockroaches with the money will cope, they always do, but anyone without money will see the effects very soon.
This thread has been closed.