General Discussion

Part 1 here - https://www.dawlish.com/thread/details/44987

So Michael Heseltine has warned Boris Johnson that his remarks about leaving Europe are "preposterous, obscene" - and are damaging his prospects of becoming Prime Minister.

Sound advice (from someone who once would be king) but probably too late for a man who already has a string of such outbursts to his name. 

Speaking to the BBC, the Tory grandee said: “I find it deeply distressing. I don’t really understand what Boris is up to, frankly. I know him, I like him, he makes me laugh. And yet [his comments] about Hitler – I found that deeply disturbing.”

The EU, he said, “has been an incredible political change to 28 free democracies voting together. And Boris can talk about Hitler? ... I think the strain of the campaign is beginning to tell on him. I think his judgment is going. Before that we had the near-racist allegations about President Obama. This is the most serious decision Britain has faced in a generation. And it is descending into an extraordinarily nasty situation”.

OMG - Boris as PM?!

Now that really would make us the laughing stock of the world.

Trump and Boris, can you imagine? 

i agree @Gary Taylor, there is a lot of stupidity / nastiness coming from the in and out camps. why do most politicians act like immature brats?

@Paul because that is what a lot of the MPs are. Career politicians that have never lived in the real world. I wish they would stick to facts and back that up with evidence, not opinion, then people can truly decide without being duped. I think the 9 million spent on leaflets should have gone into an independent report of what the state of Britain would be if we stayed in the EU or left. It would have been part speculation but would give us a better idea than listening to these MPs bickering.

Outside of politics, Cameron's only real job (if you can call it that) was as head of PR for a media company, and that is the extent of his "talents" - 

spin & BS.

It seems the leave campaigners have nothing much to loose and so can be given some credibility to the benifits they quote for leaving.

On the other hand the remain side are not only proven liars like Camoron but stand to loose much more like their expense accounts and trading back handers from corrupt bankers and arms dealers. They have used so far every fear tatic thinkable from the threat of job losses to huge interest rate rises and even a war. On this basis the remain campaign have no credibility and niether has our existing government

@Paul (19 may 12:36) because they are!

Yep rich people want it to stay the same. The majority of us working full time paying tax, and their profits.

Also the Paxman programme surely must have convinced any undecided to vote out, it really showed how awful the EU is.

I only caught the last half of the Paxman programme, but what I saw of it was excellent, must catch the whole thing on iPlayer.

I'm just surprised the BBC put this on BBC1 during  peak time.

@FredBassett "It seems the leave campaigners have nothing much to loose and so can be given some credibility to the benifits they quote for leaving." -- You really think the leave campaign aren't using scare tactics? Farage, Carswell, Gove and Johnson aren't proven liars? Really?

Got my polling card in the post today. Excellent.

A few years ago when David Cameron first mentioned the idea of an IN / OUT EU referendum, I thought oh yes please, let's get our country back. Also though it will never, just too good to be true. Well here we are, with our polling cards and only a few weeks away. So let's unshackle the chains, take control of ourselves and ensure we don't get dragged down with the sinking ship that is the EU. The NHS could do with the billions wasted on the EU.

OUT! 

Up until a few months ago I thought Brexit would be an impossibility, but now I think it is entirely likely.  Those of us who want that result need to ensure we all get out to vote to make it happen.

I don't believe that those in power will allow us to leave as their are to many powerful and influential people with their fingers in the E.U./Trans Atlantic pie. As I said before the result will come out as a fraction above to stay i.e. 49 out 51 in. I would like to be proved wrong and strongly believe that we should have never joined in the first place.

A lot of people knock the UKIP party for saying we should leave, but out of all the political parties WHO has the most to loose if we do? yes, that's correct UKIP. They only have 1 mp, but 22 mep's.

Whether you are an old crusty like me or a young swinger looking forward to going to Powderham next weekend, here is a refreshing take on the debate from a non-politician with a remarkable world view:

http://inews.co.uk/opinion/columnists/i-trust-bob-geldof-politician-eu/

"Geldof is 64-years-old now, but he hasn’t lost the ability to rouse the rabble. He may not naturally have the ear of the young any longer, but... he's exactly the figure to cut across the political posturing, and get this important constituency out of bed and vote. And he won’t need to tell them they’ll have to get a visa to go to Ibiza!"

Geldof to lead the 'In' campaign then!

(but not on Mondays 'cos he doesn't like 'em  ) 

Interesting that the I's columnist "... get a visa to go to Ibiza" quote is primarily aimed at our youth - but it's a question holiday-makers of all age ranges will be asking.

As for what may happen to those who have retired (or who would wish to retire) to southern Europe on the UK's 'triple lock' pension, I do not know. Some will feel these folk should manage with a frozen government pension, as happens elsewhere. But if that were to happen, many could find themselves with a diminishing (in real terms) sterling-based pension - and with little choice but to return to the UK.

Along with the many that will no longer have the flexibility to work in Europe, that movement will do little for our net migration figures. 

And if they returned to the UK adding to the housing, NHS and social care crises?

It's an interesting article about Geldof, I agree with this passage;

"Wrong words

For a start, to entitle the campaign Remain is a mistake – it is, he said (expletives deleted), passive, lacking in conviction, and hardly a call to arms. Geldof believes that it’s a simple choice – in or out – and the direct appeal should be to voters’ emotions."

Farage was interviewed in the Guardian and makes a similar point that I find myself agreeing with.

"He thinks the leave side’s greatest asset is “passion” – whereas the remain campaign’s biggest weakness is “no positivity. I mean literally none at all. There is nobody saying: ‘The EU’s fantastic, we love this flag, moving towards a full political union is fantastic.’ Because they know the British public just don’t want to hear it. So they can’t say anything good about Britain’s relationship with the EU. It’s just the argument that if we left, the sky would fall in.” The danger for the Remain camp is what Project Fear will do to turnout."

Full article;

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/20/nigel-farage-ukip-eu-referendum-interview-vote-leave-brief-every-day

All depends on your perspective, if you're a MP on a decent salary and expenses such as our present and former MP or a local councillor with a fat pension or 17K in yearly expenses like the leader of Teignbridge you may think everything's okay.

They're out of touch with people at the sharp end who may already feel that the sky is falling in and who are easily swayed by the OUT campaign - it is understandable it represents change at least.

I agree with the positions put forward on here about ex-pats returning, visa requirements, etc. But Geldof and Farage appeal to a wider audience as it seems people are simply sick of career politicians who frame everything in cold, economic terms. The OUT campaign are playing the emotional, patriotic card because they can, it's easy for them to do so, just as the right wing is doing in Austria, Hungary, France and Poland.

Whatever the outcome of the referendum, the EU resembles the Weimar Republic and it is already unravelling. What comes next is deeply concerning.

Whether we're ruled by Brussels or Westminster is irrelevant, all political parties are puppets of the corporations.

I don't have any confidence in our politicians whether at European, national or at local level. From TTIP to the Dawlish housing developments and the concert at Plunderthem Castle it's riddled with corruption.

I do not altogether subscribe to ND's rather depressing snapshot of Europe and its leadership, but if you are not persuaded by the importance of our place it in at what may be a turning point in the EU's history I can recommend a look back in time: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Republic

The Weimar comparison was that of a failed system of government - that was inherently weak from the outset and that then led to to the rise of the right.

Seems like history is repeating itself.

Looks like chaos whether we stay or leave. Thanks for the link though. Was it for your own benefit?

@Gary Taylor, of course you don't subscribe to it you're a lib dem councillor. but you did begin this thread and fair play to you for being the only local representative on here from what i see who is prepared to communicate with voters.

I was simply expressing an opinion about why the IN campaign cannot connect emotionally with voters, referencing the I article you referred to about Bob Geldof.

And just because I oppose the neoliberal status quo it does not mean I am with Johnson, Gove and Farage.

I imagine it'd be worse, but short lived. and then who knows? Constitutional reform.

I'd take the risk, I've little to lose personally.

I think many people who do not usually vote in elections will turn out for the referendum to vote to leave. The IN Campaign which is completely centre right seems incapable of convincing them that staying in Europe will improve their lives in any way.

For me there is a leftist argument to exit the EU, but with our electoral system and lack of an opposition it would never happen.

I'm not opposed to co-operation in Europe to prevent war, ensure human rights, and better environmental protection than in the US, etc, but the way the EU has handled the migrant crisis is disgusting, and the inclusion of many Eastern European countries was pure expansionism - It has just antagonised Russia and suits US Foreign policy.

The EU is now almost completely neoliberal but if it follows any other path it won't be competitive with the US, Russia, China and the far East. Look at France and Hollande's attempts to curb worker's rights - it's Thatcherism.

So yes I'm disillusioned with politics on every level.

@Gary Taylor are you suggesting the EU will radically reform itself and avoid disaster?

If so what do you base this on? As I don't really get the relevance of the wiki link to Weimar. I don't think Cameron, Juncker, Merkel and the like are capable of learning lessons from history.

Chaos whether we stay or leave? Now there's a cheery thought.

So better to stay at home then, rather than go out to vote to leave the EU - and find yourself blamed for the chaos. 

EU Chief Juncker Warns UK Over ‘Deserters’

European Commission boss Jean-Claude Juncker has warned the UK that “deserters won’t be

welcomed back with open arms”.

In hard-hitting comments, which have sparked accusations of intimidation among eurosceptics, 

he said the UK would “have to bear the consequences” if it voted to quit the 28-member bloc.

Juncker goes on to say that the much-vaunted EU reforms Cameron claims to have secured "will not be easy" to implement.  So, in fact, the piece of paper Cameron signed could be absolutely worthless, but this will only become apparent after the referendum, should we vote to remain.

Juncker stated only last year that “Brexit is not a question that arises, it’s not desired by the British”.  His threats would indicate he now thinks differently, and panic is setting in at the European Commission.

http://news.sky.com/story/1699424/eu-chief-juncker-warns-uk-over-deserters

Excuse me? I thought your Lib Dem colleague was the one without any people skills.

Just goes to show how out of touch our elected representatives are with the public. Proves my point.

In that case ND, we should perhaps let Sir Bob have the final say in the matter:

...while David Cameron may have misjudged his invocation of a Third World War, I agree with Geldof that the lessons of history should be heeded, and that the existential threats to Europe’s security would be better addressed as a united force.

“I will never vote for anything that sends my children and grandchildren to war,” he said.

That's patronising though not as much as your last post and avoids acknowledging my objection to your lousy attitude. Hardly befitting of a councillor. I'm done discussing the referendum with you.

Why the hell would I give a rich celebrity with a knighthood the final say!

With Germany pushing for the creation of an EU army with them taking leadership (of course), I think it imperative that we leave the EU:

“German security policy has relevance — also far beyond our country,” the paper states. “Germany is willing to join early, decisively and substantially as a driving force in international debates . . . to take responsibility and assume leadership”.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e90a080e-107b-11e6-91da-096d89bd2173.html

As far as the referendum is concerned the people who will vote out know that they wont win it will be fixed for the remain side. I will be voting OUT. I wonder which way this forum would be voting? Lets do our own survey. Anyone up for it.....

i think that might be the case @Brooklyn Bridge. i'm undecided i don't want the right wing of the tory party and ukip to take control if out win, even though ultimately i think that would see the break up of the union and eventually the end of the tories or more authoritarianism. and i  wouldn't object if the scots voted for self-government. but whether a new fairer form of politics would emerge is a big unknown. i think it would be a period of upheaval and and not a nice prospect if i'm permitted to have some not 'very cheery' thoughts.

But then I'm part of a section of society with less to lose.

With the IN vote, I would like to believe that the EU could be reformed, which politicians like Carolina Lucas advocate, but in truth I think it has gone to far and I don't think the ruling eltes across Europe are willing to embrace such radical change. I'm not a nationalist, I speak other European languages and have worked on continental Europe. But European governments are too embroiled with big business which demands vast trading blocks and impedes social change.

Essentially greed and corruption is the problem whatever the outcome and the only ideology is neoliberalism, which is beginning to falter as the planet can't sustain incessant growth.

Compared to the general election a year ago, I find myself in dialogue with more people on the right who I wouldn't usually consider I'd have much in common with. Now more than ever the 'them and us' just applies to the top 1% and the rest of us.

I can understand why people with more rightist views see OUT as a viable option and I wouldn't belittle them.

So i'm undecided, neither campaign seems credible, but they're just products of the dominant discourse.

OUT is two fingers up to the establishment, but it could just strengthen it. But it could bring real change. IN is just delaying the inevitable break up of the EU and possibly the Union, in my opinion.

Anyone know which side the Queen supports?

If the leave campaign win,  and we all know they wont because the corrupt government cant allow that. But if they do will CAMoron stand down and could Boris realistically become PM or will parliament have to be desolved and a general election called?

Again if leave win. How are they going to implement the talked about closing of our borders and how long will this take. This is the No1 issue in my mind 

Having seen very little preparation for change from any companies, civil services, airports, sea ports, political parties or individuals for that matter. Is anyone actually taking this seriously?

Appantly it would take 2 years plus to actually leave the EU and like the Scottish Independence referendum our government is unlikely to have prepared for this outcome.

I reckon the Queen supports the IN campaign as leaving the EU could result in the dissolution of the Union and I can see Scotland voting to be a Republic should this happen.

She loves shooting Grouse up at Balmoral and Tartan knitwear,

Fred, We have already covered what the Queen's position is on the referendum, however this is what The Express quotes, hot from the UKIP battle bus tour, from Nigel Farage:

"I think Boris is a very good guy. 

"He could be our next prime minister - if we vote for Brexit he probably will be."

As for the other questions, I can only say that I believe most people are taking it very seriously, but how long any changes may take is anyone's guess.

I'm serious I don't think the Royal family really cares what happens to the vast majority of the population, my sarcasm reflects this.

It does not mean that I don't take this referundum seriously, although I don't particularly think abstaining will make much difference in the longer term.

We're witnessing the demise of the EU, France one of the two core EU nations is likely to have a referendum and given the dominance of the National Front an exit could happen.

The referendum in this country will be replicated across the continent, as austerity is a continent wide policy (or political ideology), it is little wonder that people across Europe seek alternatives on the left and the right.

Unfortunately in this country we only have centre right and an increasingly right wing alternative, so we'll have austerity whatever happens.

Human rights, environmental protection and a trans continental green energy grid and the hope of an ethical solution to the migrant crisis will probably make me vote to stay in. But we're already going backwards in all these areas.

Its a bit of a dilemma. I want out, but cant see that voting out is going to mean just that, and to me it looks like which ever way the vote goes nothing is going to change straight away. I also dont see how we have a fair vote whillst a single political party is in government surely we should be voting as per a general election at the same time as the referendum

It is a dilemma. the reasons I'd vote to stay in have more to do with my conscience because of some important EU safeguards and slightly more distruct for Johnson, Gove and Farage than Cameron and Osborne, plus the Lib Dems and Blairites. so it's the lesser of 2 evils.

Cameron wants TTIP anyway,  so it just amounts to whether they bleed the country dry as part of a trading block or as a peripheral European nation. Either way I don't feel I'm voting for anything that represents hope for the likes of you and I. Both Tory factions want a British Bill of Rights which is pretty scary.

This leak (see link) about TTIP and CETA just shows how undemocratic the EU has become and how businesses are afforded more rights than citizens. It looks like those EU safeguards are under threat. So maybe I'm favouring out now.

http://www.waronwant.org/media/eu-planning-parallel-justice-system-business-new-leak-shows

Let me get this straight if the Remain campaign win it is fixed because of a corrupt government? FFS

Cameron's comment about the Nigerian and Afghan governments being 'fantastically corrupt' could be interpreted as admiration.

While the idiot Politicians have taken us on this stupid EU big waste of time and money venture for forty years The Queen has kept the Commonwealth going. Now we can redress the balance by leaving the EU and work with The Commonwealth, Europe and the whole World. 

Big thanks to the Royals for looking after The Commonwealth. It's a great shame we no longer have Britannia. Tony Blair takes away the Royal Yacht from the Nation and then is on TV the other day discussing The Queen's birthday. What an A$$HOLE that git is. Anyway, when we leave the EU we can build a new Britannia with one week's EU money.

This from yesterday's I newspaper:

@Paul - or we could spend the money on something much more worthwhile and which many more people would benefit from.

We could spend it on a really Big Weekend

To return to the EU debate.

Wonder if these academics could give us an objective pro and con analysis?

https://www.exeter.ac.uk/news/featurednews/title_490335_en.html

Depends whether anyone believes if universities are considered unbiased and objective. Exeter university depends on corporate sponsorship and a regular influx of foreign students so staying in the EU would be in it's interst. The commercialization of higher education is concerning.

https://www.newsrecord.co/neoliberalism-and-the-commercialization-of-higher-education/

Well, to go off the subject  of the EU a tad - do have any funding source in mind that you consider would enable universities to

be unbiased and objective?     

No not under the current system that's a discussion on Thatcher and Blairite education policy.

I think it's directly linked to the subject of the EU, higher education is big business now and with corporate sponsorship there are strings attached. For me TTIP is directly linked to whether we stay or leave the EU, but it's hardly mentioned and that will impact on free speech, civil liberties, etc, of which universities used to play a key role.

I

I'm not talking about the current system.

I'm asking if you have in mind a university funding system that would not lead itself open to claims that it might bias academic research. 

Did you read the link? It explains what neoliberalism is about.

In short I doubt any sub-system of a neoliberal system could be truly independent and unbias. Whether it's education, health care, etc.

In my opinion Thatcher and Blair created too many new universities, the grant system couldn't cope with a sharp rise in students going to uni (some wityh low grades and to do micky mouse courses), so fees became an inevitability. We now have one of the most educated workforces in the world but 1 in 3 graduates obtain graduate level work.

Most will not pay back their tuition fees and won't contribute to the economy. It's not sustainable.

A start would be to stop corruption and tax avoidance and for central government to redistribute funds to fewer universities without the involvement of the private sector.

But that's all academic as I don't see it happening.

So, if you believe there is no system or sub-system of neoliberalism that could be truly independent and without bias, can you suggest an alternative system?

(and yes I did read the article).   

In truth I can't answer your question. Capitalism has failed, neoliberalism is its last stand. Communism never works in practice. Socialism, like capitalism is linked to growth without regard for environmental limits.

I don't think a system exists that balances trade, social welfare and environmental stewardship nationally or globally, I think corruption and greed need to be tackled first. And as if Cameron and co will instigate that! His summit was hypocritical given the Panama papers.

Most westerners live as if we've got 2-3 planets worth of resources, some even more and India, China, etc are following suit.. populations of humans and livestock to feed us are putting a massive strain on global resources.

I don't know the solution to it all.

Do you think neoliberalism would allow a potentially critical sub-system to rock the boat? Of course not -  that system's not about people or planet, only profit for the benefit of the elite.

To return to objectivity and bias and university funding.

If neo-liberalism funds our universities thus putting a big question mark over research objectivity, then surely howesoever our universities

(or universities anywhere for that matter) were to be funded wouldn't there still be question marks about objectivity.

Indeed, is there any such thing as objectivity? 

Have you read "The Establishment - and how they get away with it" by Owen Jones? It's well worth a read.

And look up The Overton Window. 

It is clear Lynne than none of us have all of the answers.

I do not share ND's dystopian views (although there is much to agree with in what he says about global resources and our society's race to exploit them - and the appalling vacilation on refugees) and while I do consider there to be a lurking existential element to our decision to leave or remain in the EU, without a more positive vision for the future many will pass by the opportunity to make their mark come 24th June.

On most measures, this country has prospered as a European partner through the inherent economies of scale. Our primary industries may have been overtaken by cheaper production elsewhere in the globe, but our technical skills and innovation continues to attract inward investment from big ticket global manufacturers such as aerospace and automotive.

We are also a world leader in banking services, partly thanks to having one foot in Europe and the other striding the Atlantic, but also because of our human resource capability and flexibility. We are made stronger by being able not only to import talent (name you favourite premier league football club - another huge revenue earner) but to export it also.

The empire is gone and we should not expect to harness the wealth of these now largely independent countries to our benefit again. Instead we must face up to the challenges and opportunities of the global future not just for our sakes, but for those of future generations.

Europe will be stronger with us within it; surely we will be stronger too?

@Gary Taylor (23 may 08:47) you're living in a day dream. currently the E,U, is being invaded by millions of illegal immigrants, of which they seem to have little power to stop.

The E.U. is in a financial spiral of decline due to country's like Greece being in debt to the tune of 325 billion euro's. The only reason the E.U. does not want us to leave is our

donations and the possible chain reaction other countries may have to us leaving.

If the E.U. were a company on the ftse it's share price would be going through the floor by now.

The only silver lining to the whole mess was that we kept sterling, god know what would have happened if we had taken the euro.

The only politicians telling us to leave are those who would loose the most from our leaving. Rather than cameron and his goon's who want us to stay so they can make

more money and have more lavish sponsored trips to Eurpoe for themselves at our expense.

Very Interesting arguments on both sides for deciding IN or Out. Of course it's a leap of faith whichever way you view it, but you have to ask yourself do you want to be ruled by Brussels which of course we will be if we stay in and with the impending of Turkey being granted membership along with others. If you think services are at breaking point now it's going to get a lot worse. We all have heard all the scaremongering even suggesting war would break out. Come on Great Britain let's divorce from this dysfunctional and one sided marriage. Osborne has stated "let's get Britain back on track" how did we get of the track in the first place?

Todays warning - 'if we leave the EU we will have an instant recession'.

Dave and George are getting more and more desperate and silly by the day. Just trying to save their own selfish necks.

Well guys we've had enough of you and we've had enough of the EU. Good riddance to all.

If you think we are off track due to the EU then you are missing so many more factors that are down to the successive failing Governments. The EU is an easy scapegoat for all these problems. If you think by voting out all our problems or even a lot of our problems will be solved then you aren't living on this planet. You are trusting an MP like Johnson who when asked which directives he would scrap said "I think the directive which says kids under the age of eight can't blow up a balloon." . 

I don't know about anyone else but I'm getting information overload.  Thankfully my postal vote will be here soon and I can switch off completely until the postmortem.

This did make me chuckle -

EU referendum called off after both sides run out of bullshit

@flo - yes that's very funny.

Another one today - 820,000 jobs to go if we leave the EU. It just gets sadder by the minute.

Only 5 weeks to go and all this BS will be over and we will be free from the EU. Can't wait.

ory If the Referendum was a vote to join the EU and you were told that over 50% of your laws would be made by the EU, that you would have to give up your exclusion zone around your coast to allow fellow EU countries to fish in your waters, that their would be a common agriculture policy that would cripple your farming industry, that if any of your heavy industries were in trouble the government would not be allowed to help,that they plan to make a European army,that you would have to have an open border to over 500 million Europeans and it would cost you a gross payment of 59 million pound a day How would you vote ( one word answer ) Found this comment on the internet, thought it was worth sharing

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/beverley-cuddy/rabid-interest-in-brexitw_b_9289930.html

It will take around 2 years to extract ourselves from the EU if the country does vote that way so you will hear a lot about it after.

@Paul

"Todays Warning - If we leave the EU, we will have an instant recession"

What would you have said IF it was the Out brigade saying that?

Would you have believed it then?

BS works for both sides.

Will 12,000,000 Turks arrive in the UK if we stay in the EU?  

The Daily Express says so but that would mean that one in seven Turks emigrating to Britain – an absurd figure. In any case, Turkey’s chance of joining the EU are receding rather than enlarging under the present authoritarian regime in Ankara.

What would the EU migrant situation be if we left?

Good question. It all depends on the terms on which we leave. If we want to have continuing access to the single market, we will, like Norway, have to allow free movement for EU nationals even if we are no longer in the EU.

We can only “gain control of our borders” if we leave the single market and its barrier free access to 500,000,000 consumers. The Brexiteers have been obliged during the campaign to admit this inconvenient truth. They now say that Britain would do better with a looser trading relationship with the EU and “chosen” EU migration. Many business leaders and economist disagree.

From: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-uk-immigration-statistics-freedom-of-movement-a7044041.html

I wouldn't be surprised if the politicians advise the media to print the following next 'If we leave the E,U, we will be invaded by aliens from space'

Question: If our press is 'free' and tells the truth then how come different publications are taking different stances?

For if the Remain orientated press is telling the truth then the Brexiteer press can't be, can it? And visa versa. 

@Lynne there is not one newspaper or tv channel who just report the news and the facts. you can find online sources for the facts that are independent but people are too lazy for that.

Also people seek out sources that confirm what they believe, confirmation bias.

@S your links are all biased. 

Which ones? I have tried to find independent sources. Tell me which ones I will look again to ensure they are independent. If they aren't I will apologise.

How can you be so confident that any are independent?

https://fullfact.org/ - is it unbiased, don't see how you can tell.

You can't be 100% but based on https://fullfact.org/about/funding/ and this https://fullfact.org/about I believe they are closer than either the LEAVE or REMAIN will be.

Also, I think they did a really good job of fact checking the Government's leaflet https://fullfact.org/europe/governments-eu-leaflet-introduction/

@Lynne, thanks for the reading suggestions, owen jones is on the ball.

Whatever we think about universities objectivity/bias as it stands, the future of academic rigour, critical enquiry, student activism, etc looks bleak. Lets say a biology student got a MSc sponsored by a corporation  - in general - (changed) I think this is pretty dodgy. Corporate sponsporship and corporate placments are already offered at Exter uni, it's moving in the wrong direction in my opinion.

@Gary Taylor

You don't share my 'dystopian view', but you refer to a lack of a vision for a more positive future? 

"I do not share ND's dystopian views (although there is much to agree with in what he says about global resources and our society's race to exploit them - and the appalling vacilation on refugees) and while I do consider there to be a lurking existential element to our decision to leave or remain in the EU, without a more positive vision for the future many will pass by the opportunity to make their mark come 24th June."

I'd like to know what you think the future has in store for the country and the environment for that matter if we 1 remain and 2 leave the EU. You're arguments on this forum just echo those of your party, Cameron, etc.

i.e. mainly framed in economic terms, nothing about sovereignty or self-determination.

What are your thoughts on TTIP? Do the Lib Dems welcome it or oppose it?

You might think that the country hasn't done too badly in the EU, but you might be comfortably well off, have a pension, had a decent career.

For people at the sharp end of austerity Britian the 'Remain' message is pretty meaningless. Framed in economic terms just shows how politicians are out of touch with people disillusioned with the lack of choice in politics.

I do think OUT would be worse, but to many who believe what they read in the right wing press, are clueless about TTIP, totally oblivious to the ecological situation, etc the OUT campaign is probably going to resonate with them as it at least represents some change.

Twisting, rather than sticking in the same old crap.

Trouble is under Gove, Johnson and Farage we'd have a neoliberal nightmare. Austerity max with eroded civil rights.

Under Cameron and Osborne we have austerity - probably austerity Max... eventually. and eroded civil rights. Great Choice eh?!

So I disagree that voting on the 24th June is an 'opportunity' that many may miss to make their mark as there's really much to lose from IN given the EU's trajectory and secret dealings and much more to lose form OUT.

@ Those who think the EU is undemocratic. I'm not going to disagree it needs radical reform but it lacks visionary leaders with a social agenda. It has morphed into what appears to be a German economic project. And the EU has been conducting unlawful and secretive TTIP trade deals with the US - leaked on the 19th.

Equally if you think the UK is a democacy then you're deluded.  We have the undemocratic House of Lords which is full of corporate lobbyist, 1st past the post and just as much corruption. The Cirty of London is the money laundering capital of the World.

And is nobody bothered by the Panama papers? The handling of the NHS?

EU countries wanted to have greater banking regulations - yet Cameron and co vetoed this to protect his banker mates in the City. It's too easy just to criticize the EU, our political system is just as bad if not worse. But some Britsih people believe the UK is democratic, it's such a joke! How much power do we as citizens have?

@Gary Taylor and there's not just 'much' to agree with my point about our society's exploitation of global resources, there's everything to agree with it. unless like many denial prevents consideration of the facts .it looks bloody bleak to me and there's no visionary leadership from any party.

You also highlight the importance of the EU in relation to the UK's banking sector.

However perpetual economic growth is wholly incompatible with environmental protectionism and ethical limitations on resource use. Trade devours resources with no thought for future generations of humans and other species.

At least the Greens and Corbyn can get there heads around this. One man and a party with 1 MP!

Unfortunatey money talks and gets people elected. People find climate change, etc too abstract as a concept until it directly affects them.
 Then its too late.

I admit it is all a bit dystopian, I do think it's all cyclical and change is imminent, it might get worse before it gets better. Who knows?

Civil unrest? War in Europe? Race riots? It's all possible. We're already seeing the rise of the far right as a reaction to neoliberalism which is just putting the squeeze on citizens globally, not just in the UK and Europe.

The EU looks doomed to disintegrate anyway.

Scary times.

For the avoidance of doubt, the views that I post on this website are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of the Liberal Democrat party or of Dawlish Town Council.

As for the positive vision (an alternative to the dystopian one that ND proposes) I think this is summed up best as above:

...we must face up to the challenges and opportunities of the global future not just for our sakes, but for those of future generations.

Europe will be stronger with us within it; surely we will be stronger too?

@Neoliberal Democrat - monsanto are not dodgy if that is what is being indicated by "sponsored by Monsanto - Pretty dodgy" unless you just mean Corporate sponsorship in general.

Dodgy Dave too frightened to take part in head-to-head TV debates.

So then, with a thoroughly depressing disregard for both democracy and the British electorate, David Cameron refuses to take part in any of the head-to-head TV debates during the EU referendum campaign.
His decision is not just cowardly. It is an abrogation of his prime ministerial duty, which is to face his opponents in open debate, so the arguments can be probed and tested before the largest possible number of voters.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3607843/DAILY-MAIL-COMMENT-PM-frit.html

Instead he will only appear at highly stage-managed presentations to employees of companies that support the remain cause e.g., B&Q, ASDA, O2 (and his mate Osborne at Ryanair last week).

Why is he hiding away? Too scared his opponents will make mincemeat of him in public debates?

@Gary Taylor, yes you can say what you like on here but it's naive to think that people will disregard it when you choose to go into councillor mode.

It's probably not your wisest of moves, but maybe you don't want to get elected again.

I agree with that quote by the way, but it's completely undermined by TTIP and the wider lack of transparency in UK and EU politics. It's just rhetoric. It's not a vision at all really, just hope and the quote really refers to economics and not social/environmental sustainability.

I am voting to stay in the EU, but it looks incapable of the reform needed for those future generations.

@S Yes i'm saying a student sponsored by any corporation in general is a dubious arrangement as is the commercialization of higher education. That was just an example.

Monsanto's business ethics is another discussion though.

@Neoliberal Democrat - you are anti-gmo then? i know it is a separate discussion but another subject that people get wrong and believe the headlines.

@S

GM was on the radio yesterday. I'm undecided. The argument that we will struggle to feed the global population is actually the reality now, many people do not have enough to eat whereas westerners eat way too much.

We need to talk about diet and how we in the west demand to eat meat most, if not every day.

The WWF's carbon calculator is a decent tool for considering diet,  lifestyle, etc.

I'd have to find the sources, but when you look at how inefficiently we use the land currently , I think this needs to be addressed before GMO.

I'm not anti-GM, but who is pushing for it and with what agenda is my concern. GM is not without risks.

If feeding the world population is the goal, then why not discuss the importance of a mainly vegetarian diet or protein from insect farming which is more efficient for example and protein rich. GM looks like it's just business as usual in it's current form.

I just don't believe in a one size fits all approach, but I would imagine GM foods will be introduced, whether or not the risks are really understood. But can we genetically engineer crops to constantly adapt to a changing climate in any case? Seems pointless given we're already past 400 ppm of carbon dioxide. It's all to with tipping points.

For a species thats evolutionary path is one of destruction of it's only life support system; the planet. I don't have much faith that humanity should be trusted in altering the evolutionary path of plants, other animals, etc.

And then there's designer babies...

Ok, there a lot of lies around what Monsanto does and their practices. GMOs do amazing good around the world.

The Monsanto Protection Act was designed to put GM above the federal courts, it's no different to Tobacco companies suing governments over plain packaging and warning signs.

I admit we need to consider all options, but we should do so under the laws of individual nations and international law. I've already posted about TTIP and the lack of accountability, transparency, etc.

It depends what you read -amazing good/amazing damage, but then the press is bias and our views are shaped by our own beliefs and backgrounds.

The fullfact.org doesn't seem so credible when Rolls Royce are a backer, they're making vast profits based on the arms trade.

Fair point.

"A life of microwave meals and alcohol abuse means liver problems our health infrastructure just doesn’t have the resources to cope with. Within a year they’ll have eaten all of our biscuits. Are we really going to allow one of the fattest nations on earth to have free rein in our hospitals? Already some 5 million Brits live abroad. And as anyone who’s ever been to the Costa del Sol will tell you, the problem is, they just don’t assimilate."

What if Turks talked about Britons the way Vote Leave talks about Turkey?

Even The Guardian is saying the EU is being on its best behaviour - until June 24th 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/25/greek-bailout-eu-on-best-behaviour-until-referendum-over-brexit

Should the remain vote prevail, then I confidently predict there will be all kinds of nasties coming out of the woodwork post June 23rd.

And this from the same newspaper, Burneside.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/25/vote-to-leave-eu-will-condemn-britain-to-irrelevance-say-historians

These people are entitled to their opinion, of course, but that's all it is, an opinion.  And one with which I vehemently disagree.

@burneside 'all kinds of nasties coming out of the woodwork'. what do you mean?

The EU budget for one.  All discussion on that has been put on ice until after June 23rd.  As one Polish MEP says "they don't want to open the Pandora's box before the referendum".

And that's just the start.

http://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-presses-brexit-hold-button-uk-referendum-campaign-eu-legislation/

i don't know if being governed by the Germans would be any worse than the Norman descendants of William the Bastard who sit in Westminster to be honest.

@Lynne building a new britannia would be a very worth while investment, an excellent advert for the us.

As we are not willing to work for the same or less than a Chinese worker we need some other way to compete. Think of the British steel industry, they have got no chance against the Chinese steel producers. We have to produce high quality goods and provide specialist services that others can't, which we have always done, 'Made in Great Britain' was quality assurance for buyers. However our governments have sold everything we had and we can't even fend for ourselves. We have to constantly borrow (currently to the tune of about £6B a month). How very sad. So advertising that Britain is great again has to happen. 

Currently we are just Germany's lap dog, we must leave the EU and regain our position at the centre of The World for all things great and good. We can all strive for excellent in everything we do and truely be great again.

Leaving the EU will put Britain at the centre of the world?

What tablets are you on?  

I didn't write any sentences.

I asked two questions.

"Centre of The World"? How does leaving the EU make us the centre of the world? Why do you think Britain isn't great now? Why does leaving the EU make us great again?

The fact is we can't compete with India and China when it comes to labour costs. You are right our quality is the selling point but a lot of British companies have things produced in China and India to make more profit and compete in the global market. That won't change by coming out of Europe.

@Lynne, so nothing to back up your silly rant.

@S, why is it that in all your posts you seem to know everything? you'd make a great dictator.

There are so many reasons to leave, I can't see anything that's good about the EU. Here are some disasters

• Immigration
• French strikes
• Refugee crisis still not sorted
• Massive debts but still spending money like it's water (other people's money that is)
• Nothing actually achieved

Why do you think the EU is so great? It causes us no end of problems, costs us a ridiculous amount of money we don't have and tells us what to do. 

What is so great about the EU?

Since when has asking two questions been defined as a rant? (That's a question not a rant by the way)

But I'll ask one of them again (up to you if wish to see it as a rant).

How would leaving the EU put Britain "at the centre of the world for all things great and good".?  

Leaving the EU will free us from the group of coutries that are just in it for themselves, the net receivers. It will also get rid of the power hungry politicians from the other countries such as Germany. Why continue to be Germany's underdog, when we can stand up for ourselves, promoting all that is great about Britain, rather than be just a poor substitute.

There really is no reason to be in the EU. So let's go our own way, trade with whoever we want to on our terms. And not be shackled to the EU and all the stupid regulations.

Let's be Great Britain again.

The problem is Paul, how would you stop a Great Britain outside of Europe becoming just a lonely little England? What do you think would happen if Scotland voted to remain in the EU as predicted?

Interesting blog.  Orignally seen on Facebook and contains swearing for any sensitive bunnies.

EU referendum - in or out

Sooo much crap in that blog, hardly worth reading.

We've never been masters of our own destiny. This country is still lorded over by the Norman Yoke.

It's always been about 'Them and Us'.

Cameron's 'alleged' face f**king of a dead pig symbolizes their contempt for those they consider 'plebs; and 'oiks'.

Britannia and Great Britain? Wake up, this collection of nations and 'have' and 'have nots' is more divided than ever.

@Paul I asked questions and posted links to independent sources but I know everything? it seems everyone voting out know what is going to happen.

The EU is not great and needs changing but we can't do that by shrinking back to our little island and not being in it!

The EU is beyond meaningful reform, it just ain't going to happen.  Cameron recently grovelled his way round the EU table, and came back with crumbs.  The backtracking has already started, with EU president Jean-Claude Juncker stating that implementing the agreement "won't be easy".  The agreement, for what it is worth, still has to be ratified by the EU parliament and could be struck down in an instant, is it any wonder Cameron never mentions it any longer.

@burneside  I agree with you Cameron's a slippery character. Why would anyone vote for him and his party? Why do people trust the Tories with the future of our nation?

I’m one of those undecided voters. I have little faith in the polls as the last election taught us that polls are unreliable. Most of my friends seem against remaining but most of my friends live in the South West where it is traditional to identify with GB rather than the EU. I think the SW will on the main vote out. The SW is a minority (an elderly one) though and the majorities like Scotland and Wales seem to favour the EU. This leaves us with the English. Recently, it is very rare for the English voters to turn out more than 35%. If this trend continues in the referendum then I think the remain side will win but, and it is a big but, if the English 70 % to 75% that are usually silent decide to vote then I think the leave side will win a majority. If the leave side don’t win then it will be only a matter of time before they do just like the Scottish vote for independence. History teaches us this.

I'm definitely not a Lib Dem supporter but Tim Farron says this;

"Look at the other side - Farage, Johnson and Goldsmith - the most conservative forces in British politics have already made their agenda clear. "These 'Go' rallies are one lurid blazer away from John Redwood's fantasy cabinet."

They are English nationalists who want to reduce workers’ rights, reduce environmental protections and reduce financial regulations on the banks.

Lord Lawson, the former Tory Chancellor, is just one of several Brexiteers who have argued that a vote to leave would free Britain to return to a full-blooded, hard-right Thatcherite agenda."

taken from http://www.libdems.org.uk/tim_farron_s_speech_on_the_european_union

And I agree, but I think Cameron and Osborne will deliver much the same outcome. Thatcher would be all over TTIP and that could happen in the EU.

Farron fails to mention this of course.

I think the EU will break up or fail to reform, so like Scottish Independence a future referendum could be triggered.

@Gary Taylor. What are you saying with that photo above of the street art with those two blokes kissing and the title 'not # in for this? Are you a homophobe?

So not brave enough to leave last night's posting intact for all to see, Neoliberal Democrat? I think it may be you that is having a problem with embracing current affairs and art today.

Artists have revealed a 15ft-high pro-EU mural depicting Brexit-backing Boris Johnson kissing Donald Trump.

The street art appeared in The Carriageworks in Stokes Croft, Bristol, part of a collection of buildings considered to be one of the city's biggest eyesores.

According to Pink News, Campaign group We Are Europe said it was behind the artwork.

The work is a reference to the iconic Berlin Wall mural of a kiss between ex-Soviet leader Leonid Brezhnev and East Germany’s Eric Honecker.

Presidential hopeful Trump, like former London mayor Boris Johnson, has claimed the UK would be better off outside the EU.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/boris-johnson-donald-trump-passionately-8041931

@Gary Taylor. you're not brave enough to offer an opinion on ttip in relation to the IN campaign, nor to stand up for bob chapman and his daughter, nor to admit that you breached copyright by 'electronic reproduction'. Yellow is definitely your colour.

I just decided to shorten my post. I knew I could follow it up with the rest when you got anxious about being seen in the wrong light. It's so predictable. Are those Blokes Trump and Johnson? Well I never!

It maybe linked to the Cold War, but it still has a distasteful overtone and some might think you're in the business of upsetting people. I don't agree with the politics of Trump and Johnson, but that mural also manipulates embedded cultural homophobia. It's a cheap shot by a campaign group.

Would you be happy with someone painting a mural of you and Wrigley having a kiss to prove a political point? Probably not.

Intact enough for you?

It's a mural of two blokes kissing. And the big deal is?

It might be that the mural challenges embedded cultural homophobia.  Has anyone asked the artist? 

Loads of links concerning it.

@Lynne, 'not # in it for this' from an in campaign? european blokes greet each other with a kiss all the time. 

@Lynne. thanks. Hardly surprising its all over the media. At least Gary Taylor referenced a LGBT news website. even though PInk News should be more critical of this story.

I had read the original link to pink news. i understand the intended irony and trump's up the arcelor comment'. but the Torygraph excerpt below with the emphasis on 'special relationship' could be interpreted in a very different way. it's clever in that it could appeal to the well informed who understand irony and the ignorant alike. but it could offend.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/24/pro-eu-artists-paint-mural-of-donald-trump-and-boris-johnson-kis/

"Unless that changes, it's likely the UK will leave the EU and this is the kind of 'special relationship' that might become a reality. Don't let other people decide your future - register to vote before the deadline on June 7th."

Gary Taylor's original link to Pink News explains that the Cold War era art was rehashed by a Lithuanian artist where the US presidential candidate was depicted kissing Putin, etc. It is ironic in part because Putin is one of the campest homophobes on the planet and because of Trump's views, but Lithuania also has a huge problem with homophobia, so it's hard to imagine that there is no negative connotation toward LGBT people, irrespective of what an artists intention was. Art can be interpreted differently, depends on the individual, upbringing and cultural influences. It can take on a life of its own.

Lithuania and homophobia: https://euobserver.com/beyond-brussels/129197

The wider UK context is not the same as Lithuania, although the Dawlish context might be on a par. I just think the artist and the campaign is misguided in copying the Lithuanian example.

And now, apparently, God wants us to stay in the EU.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/28/peace-europe-different-faiths-must-unite

Desperation from the Remain side.

So not content with making wild and untrue accusations about me, you continue to dig a hole for freedom of expression (on this and other threads) - and for yourself.

I am sure I am not the only poster on this website who is tiring of your puerile retorts, the quasi-intellectualism and your mucky paw prints - and there is only so much personal insult that one can take. You have not only impuned my character on this website (fair play some will say) but you have also sent threatening private messages. Having asked you to stop sending such private messages under a pseudonym (which you did not), I advised you I would report the matter to Webmaster. That time, sadly, has now come. 

As to your fig-leaf posting "Are those Blokes Trump and Johnson?" - this one, Neoliberal Democrat, is for you.

@Gary Taylor.

None of the above makes sense. I've not impuned your character, nor made wild accusations, nor threatened you privately.

I am more than happy to have those private messages with your replies made available for all to read on here.

I reserve the right to express my views.

I'm not going to argue with you any more Neoliberal Democrat. I found you private messaging threatening and upsetting and that should be enough. I do  not expect to see these threats or any related correspondence repeated on this or any other thread.

As for your right to express your views on this website, that is a matter that you may find beyond your control. But go ahead - fill your boots.

Thread continues here - https://www.dawlish.com/thread/details/45024