General Discussion
A choice between the devil and the deep blue sea?
It's not personal, but which 'big beast' should we listen to - Boris or Dave?
Whichever way you vote, just make sure you are getting your facts from independent sources, not newspapers/broadcasters who have their own agenda or political allegiances. This is a good fact-checking website https://fullfact.org/europe/. In the economy section https://fullfact.org/europe/economic-costs-and-benefits-eu-membership/ there is a link to a FT review (again you need to ask how independent that is but) http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/70d0bfd8-d1b3-11e5-831d-09f7778e7377.html?siteedition=uk#axzz48ARMXaMa of 3 views on the economic consequences of leaving.
Cameron only offered the referendum because UKIP were getting a bit too popular in the polls, he never actually believed he would have to deliver on his promise, but the way things turned out he couldn't backtrack and now he's a desperate man. His speech today makes a nonsense of the threat that he would walk away from the recent EU summit if he did not get the concessions demanded, he had absolutely no intention of doing that. I'm for Brexit, without any hesitation.
Back in the 70's when we had the referendum, I voted NOT to join and am surprised that 69% voted TO join which amazes me as ever since then, I have still yet to meet someone who voted to join.
My view is that now we are in, I believe that it is better that we stay in.
We done the dirty on NZ and Aus by joining so I dont think that they will greet us back with open arms when buying their goods in bulk like we used to.
Don't get me wrong as I dont like being in the EU but as I have stated, I personally think that we are better off staying in than coming out.
Interested to hear reasons why people are voting out or in rather people just say in or out.
If one of your reasons is to control our borders then this is the latest Office of National Statistics report on migration http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/february2016. Make up your own mind by seeking out the stats and facts. Just watch out for confirmation bias in your searching.
Another useful chart showing the top 3 countries immigrates were last residents of over the years http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/HTMLDocs/dvc123/index.html. Dominated by non-EU countries India, China, Australia, US and Pakistan.
Yesterday's propaganda event by Cameron was paid for by the taxpayer, not by the IN campaign. Cameron is cheating and fiddling his way through the entire referendum campaign.
Democracy in this country, as far as I am concerned, is a thin veneer hiding a mountain of corruption and criminal activity by those who were elected by the voters, with the promise, to manage this country in the best way for those who live here.
Actually the reality, in my opinion, is many in power use it to personally profit and move themselves up the ladder of power. Many decisions made are not for the prosperity and jobs of the citizens of this country, but an old boy network of corporations and big business who merely wish to squeeze every ounce of profit out of anything they touch.
I believe that the powers that be will not allow an exit from the E.U. No matter what the voter's do the results will be manipulated to be very close, but with staying in winning buy a percent or two.
We shall see after the vote!
I agree that it is an old boy's network and a lot of politicians are in it for themselves but we do have a democracy. There are good people that want this to change but it will take time (probably long after I'm gone!!). The problem is there are still people who don't vote because they don't see the point. This only helps those in power.
@slargemail - i agree that many people do not vote in elections, probably because they feel they are rigged anyway. millions of people voted for ukip and they only got 1 mp! compared to a lot less votes for snp and they got 56 seats. the democratic voting system does not give a true reflection of the votes placed and until a tick box for 'none of the above' is placed on every election voting form i don't believe a large section of the voters will bother.
@BEE9 ticking the box "none of the above" will not do anything either though. I agree the current voting system isn't fair (but anything that keeps ukip out is a good thing ;-)). We need to encourage people to take up politics that aren't just from the usual backgrounds and ideally not career politicians! Unfortunately, the government aren't going to do anything to encourage that!! so how do we do that?
The problem with proportional representation is you will get a lot more coalition governments which can be weaker than plurality voting systems!
Do people vote for their local MP based on the local issues they say they will tackle or by party? If we had PR those local issues won't be a deciding factor and may very well lose out on issues unique to your area getting the coverage in parliament that you want.
The EU had good intentions from the beginning even though in my opinion the voting was rigged during the EEC vote during the 70s. Telling us that cucumbers had to be straight, apples had to be a certain circumference demanding we go metric, thank God we told them where to stick the EURO. Now it has morphed into a dictatorship demanding that member countries do as they are told. As it stands now we have lost control of our own destiny, to make our own decisions, our own laws, and to make our own way with commerce. If this country votes IN that will be the end of our independence, if you believe Brussels take a hard stance now with the UK just wait and see what happens if we stay in. Sure it's a jump into the unknowed, but what the heck this country has been there so many times and we have prevailed albeit with the help of our partners, certainly not any country in Europe as we had to to intervine twice this century to stop Germany ruling Europe. Now we are TOLD what to do by the countries we liberated at the cost of thousands of our citizens both military and civilians. This is not the Europe that Winston Churchell imagined.... Way back America said no more to Great Britain and this is a very similer situation. We need to be the independent country we used to be. Our only chance to sever the ties from this dictatorship is to vote OUT. Bring out that British resolve and vote and tell Brussels where to shove it.
Thanks folks
John
What no-one can say is how much it will cost us if we leave or how much we will gain by leaving. The best case estimates recently were we would be 0.8% better off by 2030 and the worse case between 6.3% and 9.5% worse off after leaving. These may be way off the mark and which group of economist do you believe is also difficult to assess.
Ok the EU didn't say cucumbers had to be straight or bananas bendy! They state standards to ensure they are free from abnormalities to ensure quality. This doesn't make such a good headline for The Sun or Daily Mail though. A list of Euromyths are listed here and links to the regulations http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/.
You can vote in or out but make sure it is based on facts and evidence.
Good article on Sky News, seems like a balanced view on the common questions http://news.sky.com/story/1650373/if-uk-quits-eu-answers-to-the-key-questions.
I am sure 98% people have already made up their mind which way to vote (if they are actually going to vote) and won't look past the headlines in newspapers :-(
A few years back I bought half a dozen eggs from someone who promptly told me that it wouldn't be long before buying half a dozen
eggs wouldn't be allowed because the EU had said that eggs would have to sold by the 5 sometime in the near future.
I had no idea what she was talking about so when I got home I googled this '5 eggs in a box story'. Well, well, quelle surprise, it was a
story being run by a couple of the tabloids.
And the moral of the story is.........don't believe everything you read in the newspapers!
PS: Here it is (I've just found it in that list of EU myths that slargemail has posted)
http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/unscrambling-the-headlines-3/
Seems from the above comments that once more people are treading on eggshells to avoid being labelled a racist. We all know the main reason for needing to get out and I for one arent scared of the truth or the labels. We are an island nation and as such we need to control our own borders and fight our own battles. Immirgration to the UK has to be controlled via managable numbers and on a skills and self sustainability basis. The do good charities need to concentrate their efforts on our own existing homeless and ex-service personel and not on the usual ever continuing sob stories from the third world African continent. The only help they need is lessons in birth control.
As for the islamic nut cases, is there ever a better reason for retaining a nuclear deterent because if they carry on I think thats going to be the only thing we can rely on to stop them as it did the Japanese.
I sincerly hope the likes of Donald Trump and Marine Le Penn get electected to their respective goverments and with more colaboration with Mr Putin we can all move foward with some new ideas and a fresh way of thinking.
I have to agree with with FredBassetts first few lines. It really does concern me where the EU is looking to go with the future inclusion of Turkey and others and if there isn't a stop now, then I can only see a continuing downward spiral. I do wish DC had negotiated better in respect of us either being able to close our borders for a few years to enable our infrastructure to be shored up, or at least have negotiated for a reduction in what we pay in order for us to reinvest into our own infrastructure. Funding for our schools and health are not from a bottomless pit. We cannot continue to do both, allowing everyone into our country and paying huge amounts to the EU. Also he should be reviewing the very questionable substantial amounts being given in Third world aid, it could have been used as a sweetener for the remain group to at least think some money would be freed up. As it is though I am really struggling to find any positive reason to stay in, so currently am very much in the leave boat.
Trump, Le Penn and Putin! Yes will need these nuclear weapons but not for a few Islamic nut cases.
Why do you think by leaving the EU we would stop immigrants coming in? You would still not have a say, the government would. Any deals with the EU or EU country after we left would have caveats. We can't stop dealing with the EU after the exit and just be our own little island.
At least an out win would get rid of Camoron and maybe some of his bent mates, should also make lunatic Corbin stand down.
A new UKIP government may just keep Farage's word and rescue us from the dangers of Merkel, Brussels, left wing brain washed do gooders and traitors like Blair, Obama and Clinton.
Our survival on our own could be achieved if we followed a Trump lead America. We survived and thrived before the EU and also won two world wars. Maybe the EU dictators should remember that fact.
So Fred, what do you think of the prospects of a Brexit vote north of the border? If Scotland vote to stay in (or for that matter Wales and N.I.) and England out, that would be the starting gun for the break up of the UK.
So no UK (and no UKIP). Just how much isolationism do you think the country can take?
It would be highly ironic if a Brexit result caused the Scots to vote for independence; no longer wishing to be part of the UK, but entirely happy to be subsumed by Brussels.
Ironic, Burneside? How so?
Some 45% of Scots voted to leave the Union last time around. Do you think the UK separating from the EU would make voting to stay together in a second referendum more likely?
Your chance to vote in the second Scottish Independence referendum below (yes even Sassenachs can take part in this one):
@Gary Taylor
In the event of Brexit, which results in Scotland having a second referendum and subsequently leaving the UK, the newly independent Scots will go knocking at the EU’s door asking to be let back in. They will have left one relatively small, and on the whole, harmonious union only to rejoin a much larger, insidious, union.
You don’t find that ironic? I do.
No Burneside, I would just find it very sad.
I do not question why 45% of Scots have already registered sufficient discontent with their closest neighbours to wish to disengage, but in my view, of the remaining 55% many would question on which side their bread would be buttered if England and perhaps Wales and N.I. voted to leave the EU.
What I do consider ironic is that while David Cameron called the EU referendum primarily to cut off the threat of UKIP at the ballot box, he has instead divided the nation, his party and his personal support in equal measure. But the referendum should not be a vote in which we judge David Cameron's abilities as a PM, a negotiator or (heaven forbid) an ambassador - it should be about the strengths and weaknesses of the arguments for and against remaining in the European Union.
For that reason and that reason alone, I shall be voting as I first did in 1975. IN
I shall be voting OUT of course. You see, I have a problem with living in a German-dominated United States of Europe.
"I wish to speak to you today about the tragedy of Europe. (...)Yet all the while there is a remedy which, if it were generally and spontaneously adopted by the great majority of people in many lands, would as if by a miracle transform the whole scene, and would in a few years make all Europe, or the greater part of it, as free and as happy as Switzerland is today. What is this sovereign remedy? It is to recreate the European Family, or as much of it as we can, and to provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom. We must build a kind of United States of Europe. (...) The first step in the recreation of the European Family must be a partnership between France and Germany."
Winston Churchill
Speech at Zurich University
19th September 1946
http://www.historiasiglo20.org/europe/anteceden2.htm
Why people think the purple Tories are the answer I will never understand! Logical fallacies are rife in all UKIPs arguments (and most politicians to be fair) https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/. This https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause, this https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem, this https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope and this https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman are the popular ones.
Where is the proof that being in the EU means a German-dominated United States of Europe? As Lynne quoted from Churchill we should be creating a united Europe otherwise we will become little Islanders.
Churchill also apparently said to Parliament in May, 1953:
"We have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked but not combined. We are interested and associated but not absorbed. If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, she must always choose the open sea"
Either something happened in the intervening period to change his mind, or he never intended Britain to be part of this United States of Europe.
Regardless, it is the here and now that matters, and that is why I think it vitally important the OUT campaign secures a victory on June 23rd.
See my post my post 00.:24 today.
Germany/Merkel takes centre stage at EU summits, nothing happens without her agreement. She unilaterally invited the world's immigrants into Germany, which by default means the entire EU. Economic arguments aside, that is enough for me to want OUT.
that is an appeal to ridicule fallacy, @FredBassett.
@burneside if we take your statement as true then being out of europe means we couldn't change that.
Something has happened between May 1953 and now, Burneside. The fall of the 'iron curtain', the reuniting of East and West Germany - and peace between European Union major powers.
You quoted Churchill for your argument, Burneside and that demanded a reasonable response. The point as I see it is that with the EU in some difficulty this is precisely the wrong time to chose the open sea option. With Britain in Europe we would continue to be a force for stability, prosperity and democracy at the EU high table. If Britain was to leave the EU, not only will Britain's world influence diminish, but Europe's also.
So no winners - except of course those kind people that Fred considers our would-be new friends.
The European Commission has delayed revealing its 2017 budget proposals until after the referendum vote. Now there's a surprise:
"A Commission official said there was “no link” between the delay and the British referendum, which is set for June 23. But parliamentary sources said the decision was widely seen as an effort to avoid a discussion of EU spending before the crucial vote. Critics of Britain’s EU membership have based much of their campaign for a ”Brexit” on Brussels’ alleged over-spending and regulatory zeal."
And this dire prognosis from the same website, Burneside:
http://www.politico.eu/article/gary-kasparov-brexit-uk-vladimir-putin-news-politics/
I quote:
“The Kremlin was in mourning when Scotland narrowly voted to stay in the U.K. Putin sees Europe as his enemy and wants his adversaries to be divided, smaller and weaker".
“Putin has done a good job of picking off the weakest, most pliable members from the herd of European leaders and using them as a wedge against a united Europe,” Kasparov said.
The Russian president supports “the most divisive elements in European politics,” in the hope that “they will repay the favor by voting to end the EU sanctions placed on Russia after his invasion of Ukraine.”
@Gary Taylor - sounds more like putin should actually join the e.u. as his activities seem more like the e,u's attitudes than against.
An interesting thought, Farty. Better a partnership of super states that bitter rivalry?
How does the song go? "We share the same biology regardless of ideology..."
A quote from a chess player? Is that the best you can do?
Also from the same website:
Brussels press the hold button on Brexit
European Union officials aren’t just determined to keep mum during the U.K.’s referendum campaign: They are refusing to move key legislation out of fear that they might fuel support for a Brexit.
Officials and politicians said several EU initiatives have been put on ice or pushed off the agenda in an effort to avoid stirring up controversy before the June 23referendum in Britain.
One wonders what nasty surprises will be in store for the UK on June 24th, should the remain vote prevail. The EU will take that result as carte blanche
to screw us over royally.
I don't have the words of Vladimir Putin to hand, Burneside. I thought those of one of his most eloquent and intelligent rivals in the 2008 Russian presidency race was fair comment.
"There are some in this country who fear that in going into Europe we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified."
Prime Minister Edward Heath (TV broadcast January 1973)
We were lied to then, and we are being lied to now.
Vote Leave.
Well, for what it is worth, my thoughts on what might happen if we leave revolve around this.
Having been rejected (because that's what will have happened) by the UK how do you think the
EU would feel towards us? Hurt? Rejected? Bitter?
I do.
Why then would the EU put itself out to benefit the UK (trade deals) if it had been rejected by the UK?
By voting to stay in we are voting to maintain the same old same old. A body which has not been financially accountable since its inception and one which consumes billions of £s with no concrete evidence that the vast amount of money spent provides value for money for our country. We know it provides masses of rules and regulations, which a lot of us view as needless interfering! A vote to leave might just be the wake up call this obsolete tanker going nowhere needs to bring about the much needed change.
The UK is the EU's largest single export market (even larger than the US). Any kind of trade war will harm the EU enormously, it just ain't gonna happen.
Oooh... "we may just drown" - what a typically spineless comment from a LibDem, no wonder your party was (deservedly) decimated at the last election. This country has been around a damn sight longer than the EU has, and will continue to prosper long after the EU has been consigned to the dustbin of history.
Throw yourself into the water if you wish, Burneside. I just hope the air stays in the life raft you appear to be trying to inflate.
@Gary Taylor, we are drowning now, inside the eu. drowning under rafts of needless rules and regulations, which we appear to slavishly follow when nowhere else in europe does! let's put the billions to better use to improve our country for everyone. to improve the health service, education and care for our elderly, to house all those who need housing and to lift all children out of poverty.
Dave's prediction of the day - If we leave the EU, it could cause a recession.
How out of touch can someone be? We are still in a recession, well at least us poor people are.
I would be the first to admit Margaret, that the EU is flawed and needs reform. But if we want to ensure that the sort of reforms that are good not just for Europe but for Britain are brought about, we should remain in the EU in order to help shape them. We will be powerless to do so once outside.
Our Prime Minister David Cameron has made the classic mistake of over-promising and under-delivering. Much though it pains me to say so however, I believe we should - at this point in time - back him to complete the job he has only really just begun.
As I wrote at the start of this thread, it is not personal and the arguments for and against should remain just that. We should base our decisions on the facts and the thorough examination of the most likely scenarios of the consequences of our actions. In that way it will be easier to come to a rational view about which way to vote.
I listen to the arguments for leaving, but I have yet to hear how we will be better off in terms of our prosperity, our security and our place in the world for doing so. Until that happens, my wish to remain is unchanged.
It is impossible to reform the EU (for the good anyway), just witness the charade Cameron went through a few weeks ago, presenting his begging bowl to the various EU leaders, and we all know it was Merkel who had the final say.
Regardless of which way we vote next month, the EU is a failed institution and will eventually collapse. It's just a matter of time. A Brexit would just hasten its demise.
Consider this simplistic but nonetheless valid point: if Brexit was achieved and we regained control of our borders,, we could stop building thousands and thousands of houses all over our countryside!
So.......immigration is the cause of the UK's housing crisis eh? And therefore if it was stoppped the housing crisis would go away? And
therefore there would be no need for lots of new houses.
Really?
There are other reasons causing the shortage of housing in this country - such as a lack of housebuilding over decades (see the graph
in this link http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11113110/Three-reasons-why-Britains-housing-market-is-broken.html .
And let's not forget that break ups of relationships then lead to two people looking for separate homes, and that more people
are living longer therefore not freeing up property that would have been freed up earlier only a few decades ago. Then add to that
land hoarding by developers.
So.....over the years supply of housing has not met demand for housing.
I'm really beginning to think that if the sun failed to rise one morning there would be a fair chunk of the UK population that
would blame it on the immigrant population of the UK!
From Conservative MP, Nick Boles:
it is important to remember that the majority—about two thirds—of the growth in population and in the number of households in the country has resulted not from immigration but from ageing.
‘One way that I ask people to think about it is by considering how many people now are part of families in which four generations are alive.
‘Quite a lot of them are. It used to be rare to have a great-grandparent or great-grandchild in a family; it is now common, because people are living longer, and they do not all want to live in the same house.’
It suits the Conservative EU narrative to downplay any problems caused by migrants. The figure currently being banded about is 2.4 million incomers between 2011 and 2015;
these people must presumably live somewhere and must equally add considerably to the pressure on housing.
What ? All Conservatives are down playing the migrant 'issue'?
Are you saying then that the Brexit Tories aren't playing the immigration card?
Do you know how many people left the UK during the same period?
Do you know how many of that figure that you quote were long term immigrants or short term ones. (eg students)?
Do you know how many of that figure were Brits returning home from having lived and worked
overseas? (see the irony in that one?)
Good result for Ukraine in last night's Eurovision Song Contest.
I voted for them because although you can't vote for your own country at least Ukraine begins with UK.
Let's hope that in voting to leave the EU we don't find ourselves ending with it.
There were a lot better songs than the winning Ukraine entry, politics just got in the way though, as is often the case in Eurovision.
I refer back to Lynnes post at 06.58 today, I think it is a little harsh to think we are blaming everything on immigrants, looking at your comments we have some choices here, vote stay, leaving things as they are knowing from current experience/evidence that our schools and nhs will implode,or 1) kill off our elderly earlier, 2) stop people from having babies or 3) kerb immigration. I don't think coming out of the EU to kerb(not stop) immigration as being a blame thing just a preferable action to 1 & 2! Fine if we have the resources for everything which although the stay campaigners give us a good history lesson don't tell us how we are to stop the rot. We can stay in and keep trying to get a better deal, but we've been there very unsuccessfully, so as I have said before I am struggling to hear a better option from anyone in amongst all the history. Certainly don't get me on the the Eurovision contest, who or what other country would pay to enter something only to be ridiculed year after year, that's how much we are valued and would be missed, just for our money!!
Immigrants and the NHS
The King’s Fund verdict
The extent to which immigrants and visitors make use of NHS services is difficult to determine, with most routine data not recording information on who is using services. The use of NHS services by immigrants and visitors will also vary across the country, depending on the number and type of immigrants in the area. However, in some cases the United Kingdom is recouping the costs of treating non-British nationals through reciprocal agreements with their respective governments or, from April 2015, through up-front fees that temporary residents need to pay before they enter the United Kingdom.
Alongside this, immigrants make up a substantial part of the NHS workforce. With some key areas of the NHS workforce already in very short supply, this contribution is very significant.
http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/verdict/what-do-we-know-about-impact-immigration-nhs
and just as a 'by the way' incidental. My dentist is Spanish. The one before that was Greek. And the one before that, Polish.
Immigrants and schools
With all this new house building due to take place within the next four years I would hope that the necessary infrastructure will
also be provided - including new schools.
Lots of info here on the NHS
· NHS crisis Q&A: What's happened to Britain's health ...
www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/...
NHS crisis Q&A: What's happened to Britain's health service - and what are the solutions? ... NHS Direct was properly staffed with nurses and was well-placed to ...
· The coming crisis in the NHS | Society | The Guardian
www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/28/nhs-funding-crisis-general...
The coming crisis in the NHS ... We call it the National Health Service but actually it doesn't invest in health, it invests in rationing medicine.
· BBC NEWS | Health | NHS in crisis
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/special_report/1999/01/99/nhs_in_crisis/252662.stm
NHS in crisis. The government has pledged extra billions over the next four years. But there is no guarantee that the NHS will improve.
· What we should do about the looming NHS crisis | Society ...
www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/28/nhs-liberal-conservative...
What we should do about the looming NHS crisis The King's Fund, an influential independent charity working to improve health and health care, ...
· Is the NHS heading for financial crisis? | The King's Fund
www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/verdict/nhs-heading-financial-crisis
Here we take a look at whether the NHS really is heading for a financial crisis. ... Is the NHS heading for financial crisis? 26 March 2015.
· NHS faces biggest financial crisis 'in a generation ...
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11921381/NHS-faces-biggest-financial...
NHS faces biggest financial crisis 'in a generation' ... Experts warned of a looming wintercrisis. ... "The NHS must play its part in delivering ...
· NHS explainer: Why are we experiencing an A&E crisis now ...
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nhs-explainer-why-are-we...
NHS explainer: Why are we experiencing an A&E crisis now? ... Many GPs are retiring or leaving the NHS to work overseas, creating a staffing crisis, ...
· NHS is in crisis says Shadow Health Secretary Andy Burnham ...
www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-30694979
Shadow Health Secretary Andy Burnham tells the BBC: ... that is a crisis." ... NHS is in crisis says Shadow Health Secretary Andy Burnham.
· A&E crisis exposed: the real pressures facing the NHS and ...
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11319627/AandE-in-crisis-a-special...
... but an NHS crisis full ... about whether tattoo removal should be funded on the NHS, aboutwhy some hospitals are paying less than £4 for blunt ...
· NHS in crisis - News, views, gossip, pictures, video ...
www.mirror.co.uk/all-about/nhs-in-crisis
The United Kingdom's National Health Service was founded in 1948 by the Labour government. ... NHS in crisis.
and this is what the National Union of Teachers has to say about the school place issue:
· Population changes are not a new phenomenon and local authorities, who are responsible for providing sufficient school places, have traditionally been able to plan to meet rising and falling demand. The significant factor in the current situation is that, since 2010, the Government has undermined local authorities’ legal powers to deliver new school places.
· Local authorities have lost the power to plan and build new maintained schools, because the Government says that any new school must now be a free school.4
· Since 2011, free schools have created chaos in school place planning and supply. According to evidence provided to the Education Select Committee, “35% of the first four waves of free schools were in districts with no forecast need and 52% were in districts with either no forecast need or only moderate need.”5
· Furthermore, local authorities cannot direct an academy or free school to expand as they can in the case of maintained schools. Academies and free schools have brought in an irrational competitive marketplace for school places rather than the rational planned provision that local authorities were able to guarantee in the past.
· In 2014, the Local Government Association (LGA) stated councils had had to divert at least £1 billion which should have been spent elsewhere to creating school places. It estimates that creating places for the 880,000 pupils expected at England's schools over the next decade could cost £12 billion.6
· In April 2015, the LGA called for: “Money for school places to be allocated in five-year blocks, rather than annually, so councils can plan long-term; Powers to open new schools to be returned to councils; and Councils to be able to compel academies to expand to admit extra pupils if there is demand.”7
· The NUT also believes that the solution to the school place crisis is to give local authorities back the legal powers they need to plan and provide enough school places in their local areas and for the Government to provide sufficient funding to enable them to do so. The Government must also take serious steps to address the growing teacher recruitment crisis.
From: https://teachers.org.uk/edufacts/school-places-crisis
If immigrants can afford the new houses being built then they better off than a lot of people in the country! These new builds aren't built to be given away, they are built got profit!
I am a bit tired of immigrants being the scapegoat of everything "wrong" in this country. The NHS, housing, economy, schools, crime ... you name it and they are the root cause supposedly of the failings.
If tomorrow we stopped all immigration into the country do you really think that will "fix" everything? What will be next thing to blame it on when that doesn't work? The Government may use, as do the leave campaign, the EU has to the blame for decisions and they are for some things like fisheries but if the Government really didn't agree with a directive for the EU they could fight it.
The Government and previous Governments are to blame for any problems in the country.
When we are wasting a trillion on Trident and squeezing money from schools and the NHS then that is nothing to do with immigrants or the EU!
"Britain can survive outside the EU"
David Cameron November 2015
Only a few months ago Cameron was adamant that Britain would thrive outside the EU, so what's changed?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14XfFjiinNE
Or not, as the case may be.
This Youtube clip is heavily cut and provides only a couple of short soundbites from what the Prime Minster was saying to his CBI audience.
I've listened to this short speech 4 times and I don't hear him saying we will thrive - only survive. Hardly a ringing endorsement for Brexit.
Perhaps someone could post an uncut version so that a more complete view can be taken?
@Gary Taylor full video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNVel2YEtdo&feature=youtu.be
Watch from 13:38 for the full section on Europe which shows how edited and out of context that shorter YouTube clip is!
People need to become better critical thinkers. These YouTube videos, the short and full, just shows how people can be easily manipulated to believe what the editors want. Add in confirmation bias and you have a very easily led society.
For all his bluster, Cameron is an out-and-out liar. Leaked information today; his "negotiations" with EU leaders were a total sham (as we all knew anyway).
While he was pretending to hold tough negotiations, Cameron had secretly started talks with business leaders to secure a remain vote in the referendum, there never was any prospect
of him walking away from that summit, and the EU leaders knew it. They had Cameron over a barrel, and threw him a few scraps which he could try to dress up as some kind of victory.
The fact those negotiations are now rarely mentioned underlines just how futile the whole exercise was.
This letter has been seen by the Daily Mail. All the other papers are reporting what the Daily Mail having the letter. I couldn't find any pictures showing this letter or the full text just quotes from it. That sets off red flags. I'm not saying it doesn't exist but it is the Daily Mail! Also note this letter was "to" the PM not from and we haven't read the whole letter.
The report also states the Cameron received the letter from the head of Serco following a meeting a few days earlier. One can only conclude the letter
formed part of ongoing discussions. Cameron's threat that he "would rule nothing out" was pathetic and meaningless, he had already made up his mind to campaign for a
remain vote even before he'd uttered a word at the EU summit.
You're making assumptions about the letter but I agree one is it was part of an ongoing discussion.
Whether Cameron backs one side or other makes no real difference to the argument for either side. I want both campaigns to stick to facts and stats and leave out the personal attacks [didn't mean to rhyme there 
]. If they presented the facts then people could make an informed decision either way but unfortunately, it is more backbiting as usual from both sides.
The problem with sticking to the facts though is they don't always say what you want them to say ...
Thanks for posting the full Youtube footage, S. Disturbing how what was deliberately left on the cutting room floor has completely changed the message.
It depends what you call "facts" of course. It wasn't so long ago Osborne was stating quite categorically every household would be £4300 worse off by 2030 if we left the EU.
The Treasury can't even accurately predict our finances in the short term, but here we had Osborne peddling figures for 14 year hence and presenting them as
something factual and believable. Is it any wonder people take the claims from the remains side with a pinch of salt.
@burneside - to be honest you have Cameron and Osbourne on one side and Farage, Gove and Johnson on the other. None of them I trust to do anything for the majority in Britain which is why I try and seek out facts myself so I can make a decision which way to vote. I don't believe what I'm spoon fed by the media or politicians.
For those whose poliltics are to the left of centre and who are still in two minds as to which way to vote
might I suggest a read of this article : http://www.redpepper.org.uk/eu-debate-what-are-the-real-choices/
I don't need to make my mind up. I never wanted to go in in the first place, and my opinion regardless of all the arguments is OUT. Everybody in my family and friends circle feels the same.we were conned in the beginning and they are still trying to con us now
By joining the E.U. and then leaving and then rejoining we haven't actually shown a willingness to fully participate in the true commitment required to be a constructive member of the E.U..
On the other hand we have allowed a group of people outside our country to implement many laws and regulations that have had serious impacts on the way judicial procedures are processed.
Do we want to allow an organisation that has nothing but contempt for us, spurned on by the U.S., to dictate how we run OUR country and pay through the nose for the displeasure.
Why should we be tied to these expense guzzling, power hungry politicians.
Much of the financial woes in the E.U, are because they took on countries that were not economically/socially viable just to increase the size of the E.U.
I'm not saying that we should not trade with Europe, but having your hands tied behind your back and gagged and paying for the pleasure is not how I see a constructive and progressive free market that can
evolve in a positive way for the betterment of all E.U. member states. Although it may be the way some of the politicians like to spend their free time (at taxpayers expense I expect).
Sooner we leave and re-establish our own independant trading agreements/ border controls and laws/regulations the better.
Inaccuracies in The Sun headlines? Surely not.
"The Queen remains politically neutral, as she has for 63 years.
''We will not comment on spurious, anonymously sourced claims. The referendum is a matter for the British people to decide.''
The Independent Press Standards Organisation (IPSO) said "The headline was not supported by the text. It was significantly misleading - given that it suggested a fundamental breach of the Queen's constitutional obligations."
Something like the Norway model perhaps, Farty?
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/eu-referendum-norway-viable-model-britain-post-brexit-1547534
According to think tank Open Europe, "if the UK were to opt for a Norwegian-style relationship it would still be bound by great swathes of the EU regulation that rankles with businesses and the general public, but – and this is the crucial point – without any vote on it."
If we vote to leave the EU then we negotiate our own arrangements to trade with the EU, which of course, do not have to be the same as the Norwegian model.
I think the UK will "survive" if we aren't in the EU and the EU will be will worse off for not having the UK in it, politically and economically.
It will take around 2 years to leave the EU so we won't see the impact straight away but we will. The budgets over the next few years will be interesting and not good for most people. These millions that we will save by leaving will soon be swallowed up by subsidising farmers etc
A lot of EU directives are already UK law so Parliament will have to vote to amend or scrap them, however long that will take.
For businesses to be able to compete there will be the need for labour migration which is opposite of the main reason people want to leave.
Article 50 - the only way to leave the EU is major liability. This means the EU will have control over the timetable for extracting the UK from the EU. We would have little control over the process. This will still take up government time though.
The estimates are we may be 1.6% better off in the best case scenario by 2030, that is best case. Greenland left the EU predecessor in 1984 and their GDP shot up, why wouldn't the UK's? This isn't 1984, we aren't Greenland and we don't only export fish.
Continue to mutter controlling our borders in the corner though and don't dig a little deeper.
@burneside - the norwegian model is not a good one. they have access to trade within the eu but they have no vote on any eu rules.
There are many benefits of being OUT of the EU. One big one is that we will be trading with whoever we want, not just with the tired out economies of Europe but also with the economically vibrant APAC region.
We all know, we contribute more than we receive, so we can subsidise farming and still have plenty left over, which we can spend on a party to celebrate being OUT.
@S sounds like you have no faith in this country.
@Paul I have faith in the country and the people. people just need to look past the headlines.
Being in the EU doesn't stop us trading with the rest of the world. Over half of our trade is done within the EU. When you say we can just go after the vibrant APAC region, as a business owner who trades in the EU and their products are consumed by those in EU how does that happen?
We will still need trade deals with the EU, this will cost.
And I await a publication entitled " How the British media has tried to lie and trick us into leaving
the EU".
absolutely @S, we will still trade with europe and the rest of the world. however we will once again rule ourselves.
Honestly can't see any point in us being in the EU.
As we dont have a Commonwealth anymore, cos we joined the EU back in the 70's and deserted them, (and which I voted against joining) I think/believe that we will be better off staying in
as the 'Commonwealth' wont be interested in helping the mother country.
My head will rule my heart so that is why I will vote to stay in.
Same here, I'm voting with my head, ignoring all of Dave's scare tactics (lies) and voting OUT.
Why remain in the EU paying through the teeth when we are struggling to keep lollypop ladies?
Dave is right to point out the risks. Boris on the other hand will say anything people want to hear to oust his Eton rival.
One needs to ask the question also of some 'Purple Tory' MPs, such as Anne-Marie Morris:
Are they voting for us and the country - or to get further up the greasy pole?
Ex-pats fear for their pensions post-Brexit
Will the triple lock still apply?
By Emma Woollacott May 18, 2016
Ex-pats in Europe are becoming increasingly concerned that their pensions could be frozen, with one expert calculating that people could lose up to £50,000 each as a result.
Currently, Brits retiring to the EU receive the same pension rises as they would in the UK. Under the so-called triple-lock system, this guarantees an annual rise matching wage inflation, price inflation or 2.5%, whichever is the highest.
Meanwhile, however, retirees to non-EU countries face different sets of rules. Some, in countries including the US, the Philippines and Turkey, benefit from the triple-lock.
However, those in most countries - Australia, Canada, New Zealand and South Africa - don't. Instead, their state pension is frozen at the amount it was when they retired, or when they left the UK if they were already pensioners.
And in the event of a Brexit, all bets could be off, with the UK forced to renegotiate deals with individual EU countries. Pensions of British ex-pats living in the EU could be frozen.
If this happens, investment firm AJ Bell has calculated, a 65-year-old receiving the £155.65 flat rate state pension would lose out on £50,000 in increases over 20 years.
"Brexit would throw the position of expat pensioners, or those who wish to retire to Europe, into doubt," the firm says in a statement.
"While some believe the government will be able to negotiate protections for expat pensioners in the event of Brexit, it is worth noting that the UK has not arranged a similar deal with a non-EU country since 1982, primarily because of the costs involved."
And the government certainly isn't making any promises, with pensions minister Ros Altmann recently telling parliament that there was "uncertainty about how a vote to leave the EU could impact on access to pensioner benefits for UK pensioners living in other parts of Europe".
The prospect has got ex-pats very concerned. In a recent survey, financial advisory firm the deVere Group, found that 68% said they were worried about how they'd be affected if the UK left the EU.
While many people are uneasy about the effect of Brexit on their assets, says chief executive Nigel Green, just as many fear losing their pension rights.
"Will UK pensions continue to be paid, inflation-linked, to those expats living in the EU? he says. "Or will the UK government try to save money?"
If we do exit the E.U. all those British citizens living in Europe will no longer be European citizen's, but British citizen's living in Europe.
Can anyone explain if this would affect those Brits living full time in Europe with their own properties ?
Would they need to apply for citizenship in the country they have settled in?
Would they be allowed to own a home in Europe, as they would no longer have E.U. citzenship, and if so would any charges such as rates etc increase?
Not all ex pats have got a vote.
'ave a read http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/28/david-cameron-and-former-union-boss-warn-brexit-would-be-a-disas/
@roberta try looking for an independent source for those questions as there is a bias. Here are the top 10 rebuttals from the stronger in campaign https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/in/pages/688/attachments/original/1463400098/Top_10_Rebuttals.pdf?1463400098. At least these have links to other sources to back the claims but I would still check them.
This thread has been closed.