General Discussion

Those new to the topic can find Parts 1 and 2 here:-

Land grab at the Warren? Part 2

Land grab at the Warren? Part 1

 Hi all -T'was only going to be a matter of time before I posted on this new thread.

Yesterday (Monday 12th) TDC's Overview and Scrutiny Committee met. Amongst other items on the agenda was a report concerning TDC's infrastructure delivery plan for the next three years. Included in this plan was the Dawlish Coastal Park SANGS at what is presently Warren Farm.

Now, we all know how controversial this is. Whether or not we think it is a right or a wrong thing I think we can all acknowledge that it is proving controversial.

So, I had hoped that at least one of our Dawlish district councillors might have asked about this matter. All five of our district councillors sit on this committee after all.

I have just looked at the minutes of this meeting. Is there any recording of even just a peep about the Warren Farm issue from any of our district councillors?

Nope. 

see this week's Gazette

http://www.dawlishnewspapers.co.uk/news.cfm?id=20693&headline=Land%20not%20for%20sale:%20farmer

Back at the beginning of last month I sent the e-mail below to our MP. @ today's date I have had no response back. So I've just sent her a reminder. If I ever do get a response I'll post it on here.

Dear Ms Morris,

I have today received the local Conservative news sheet.

I note that on the back page under the heading “A real voice for local people in planning decisions” you say you want communities to have a right of appeal against planning decisions and that you also wish them to have a bigger say in how their communities are managed.

Well, I have a case in point for you.

You are no doubt aware that TDC wish to have, as a SANGS, a coastal park where Warren Farm, Dawlish Warren, is presently sited. The owner, farmer Richard Weeks does not wish to sell his land. TDC are threatening a compulsory purchase order.

Many in this community (parish of Dawlish) do not wish this proposed SANGS to be where TDC wishes it to be. Indeed there is presently an e-petition of some 2,389 signatures (that’s as I write this, by the time you read this missive it will no doubt have increased in number) concerning this https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/immoral-tactics-of-teignbridge-district-council

The people are speaking. Are you listening? More to the point what are you, as our MP, going to do to support the wishes of us, the community of Dawlish, and not the wishes of Teignbridge District Council.

I look forward to receiving your response.

Yours sincerely

@Lynne. Just a thought but did put your full address in your e-mail to her? If you accidentally forgot she will not answer. just a thought.

@stephen15 - yes i did give my full address. as it happens she has, today, and since my reminder, got back to me via e-mail.

Words to the effect of:  she has taken this matter up on behalf of the landowner but can't give me details because of data protection (fair enough). That she cannot get involved in individual planning matters but she has been in contact with TDC to make sure that the right procedures have been followed. 

here at the minutes for the Overview and Scrutiny meeting held at TDC on 12.1.15. You can see the questions asked and the answers given re Warren Farm and the coastal park SANGS.

http://www.teignbridge.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=43016&p=0

Their answer to Question 2 effectively says it's not within their power to draw visitors away from the Warren reserve.  So why on earth are they even attempting to do it?   What a nonsensical position to be in.  

Why on earth are they attempting to do it? Because they have no option.

As I understand it SANGS are a requirement originating from  European (ie Brussels) habitat protection legislation which is concerned with protecting such places as the Exe Estuary and Dawlish Warren NNR from extra visitors due to new housing development taking place nearby.

If TDC do not have such SANGS mitigation in place then they cannot, legally, give planning permission for all the proposed new housing development in the Dawlish area.

And that my friends, as I see it, is why they ain't budging an inch on this Warren Farm issue.

But why Warren Farm you might ask? Good question. Who suggested the idea of a coastal park there all those years ago back in 2011 when the Dawlish Neighbourhood Plan Steering Group #1 first met?

As far as I am aware that coastal park proposal did not get designated as a SANGS by TDC until mid 2013. Did TDC only realise that late that they needed SANGS? or was the idea of the coastal park being a SANGS always in someone's mind? Who knows?

Whatever the history and the reasons we are still in a position whereby a local farmer and his family are likely to lose their livelihood.    

Maybe this is a naïve question, but what are the reasons why Farmer Weeks can't use the money he'll receive from the inevitable CPO proceeds, to buy alternative farming land? We keep being told by his supporters that alternative land is available for the SANGS, so surely it must also be available to Farmer Weeks? 

Because it presupposes that farming land will be available for him to buy near to where he presently lives? Because the agricultural grade of land at Warren Farm I understand is grade 1 and there isn't a lot of that near here?. Because those that own the land considered as other options for SANGS do not wish to sell that land?

Also I understand that a field or two forming part of the land at Warren Farm brings in extra income during the summer via the car boot sale, caravan club holidays, the Dare Devil stunt riders etc. So, even if suitable alternative agricultural land were to be available it would not necessarily be able to bring in extra non farming income which is what part of Warren Farm does during the summer.  

I am not privy to Richard's accounts or his business model but it might just be that without this non farming income he doesn't have a viable business.

Yes Lynne, you're right about all of that grade 1 agricultural land being used for non-agricultural purposes during Spring, Summer and Autumn.  I'm surprised little has been mentioned about Farmer Weeks wanting to build a house on this grade 1 agricultural land. 

The boot fair takes place early June to end September. The caravan club during the summer. The Dare Devil show during the height of the summer. So.......June, July, Aug, early Sept. at the most. Not sure how you can say that is spring summer and autumn. And, as I said earlier, it is just  two/three fields at most of the whole of Warren Farm.

Yes I understand there was an application to build a house on this farm. So that RW's son could have somewhere to live which would enable livestock to stay on this part of the farming business rather than have to be moved down to Easton Farm. Believe there are planning regs re agricultural businesses allowing the odd home here and there to be built on farm land.   

That sounds right Lynne. I think it's possible to get planning permission to build a house on farmland for farm workers but not for property development as we know it. So by doing that Mr Weeks isn't necessarily speaking with forked tongue.

Lynne, you say two/three fields [of grade 1 agricultural land] at most. How many fields are there at Warren Farm?  That land is used for non-agricultural purposes for more than the four months that you claim, of that I can 100% assure you. With regards to the house that he wants to build on this grade 1 agricultural land, I wonder how much that would cost to build?

I am not sure of the total amount of land at Warren Farm but I do know that it is no more than the two/three fields that get used in the summer months for purposes other than agriculture.

I am sure many who are following this thread would be interested in your giving us proof with regard to the 100% assertion that you make in your post above.  

I have know idea how much that house would cost to build. Is whatever it would cost relevant? 

Size of Warren Farm = 50 acres? http://www.warrenfarmdawlish.mfbiz.com/#

Lynne, it's now January and therefore I obviously cannot provide any documentary evidence of what happens there during the non-Winter months. I can assure you though that plenty does happen - anyone who regularly drives or cycles past the entrance to Warren Farm would know that.  Maybe one should keep a diary for this coming year, but that would mean entering the mad world of screenshotters!  

My question about the cost of building a house on the grade 1 agricultural land was purely rhetorical. Though much has been made by his supporters about Farmer Weeks being left in financial ruin by the CPO. 

Was this not the land that was going to be sold/leased to Dawlish United Football Club for a new ground some time in the past ?

@ JC so, you cannot then provide us with evidence to back up that 100% assertion of yours. So why make the claim then?

Last month you were also querying the agricultural usage (or lack of agricultural usage) of Warren Farm. I posted this in response (see 12th December on origianl Warren Farm thread)

"As there were postings on this thread yesterday concerning farming activities or, more to the point, the apparent lack of them at Warren Farm I took the liberty of asking Richard Weeks what type of farming activity takes place there. This is what he told me.

"There are cattle there at the moment all steers and some Aberdeen Angus. The sheep in the field are with young lambs. We have around 20 acres of spring barley growing in the spring so that can't be seen at the moment. Hay and  silage are produced at the farm from the grass that grows there but we wont be hay making at this time of the year. Straw and hay are stored in the barn..The main sheep flock(along with the suckler beef heard) is is at Eastdon and will be lambing shortly. I need them near the farm house to keep an eye-on them." 

@roberta - ah! yes! i was waiting for someone to mention that. my only surprise is that it has taken so long.

The field that is pertinent to what Roberta is talking about is the first one you come to, on your right, as you go along Warren Road from the Exeter Road junction.

Note that there is no football ground there.

Here's my version of events.

We need to go back some time to around about 2006 or even before that. Those who were living here at the time became aware of mumblings concerning the future of Sandy Lane Playing Fields. The pitch and putt golf course became no more. There were rumours of TDC wanting to sell off some of the land so that a supermarket could be built there. (I believe as early as 2001/2 a certain supermarket had expressed interest in building a store right on the top of the playing fields right where that lovely view is and where now the town council will be putting seats and an orientation board).

There were two football clubs in Dawlish at that time - the amateur Dawlish United team and the professional Dawlish Town team. Dawlish United, I believe, played on what is known as the old hockey pitch (that's the bit immediately adjacent to the back gardens of some of the houses on Exeter Road and Henty Avenue) and Dawlish Town played on the pitch that was then and still is now fenced off from the rest of the fields.

Around about 2007 there was a planning application submitted by Dawlish United (or someone on behalf of Dawlish United) to move off the old hockey pitch area and have a new pitch at the field along Warren Road. This field is part of Warren Farm. Much to the amazement of many (including the Weeks family) that planning permission was granted.

Shortly after that Tesco put in a planning application to build a supermarket on Sandy Lane Playing Fields on the part of the playing fields where.........yes you've guessed it.........the two football clubs played. The Dawlish Town football club management were under the erroneous impression that they could sell off their bit of the playing fields. Turned out that was wrong. It all belonged to TDC.

Remember the outcry everyone at the thought of Tesco building a supermarket on that site?

Thing was though, Tesco must have been pretty certain that they would get planning permission as they had produced all sorts of flashy literature and things. Remember that public consultation ('consultation') at the Langstone Cliffe hotel? Ha!

Anyway, as we all know that Tesco store never happened. Dawlish Town football club folded. Dawlish United now play on that fenced off part of the fields and the planning permission to go onto that field on Warren Road was never activated.

And there endeth a  local history lesson (for the moment). Kaz you got anything to add?   

“Maybe one should keep a diary for this coming year, but that would mean entering the mad world of screenshotters!”

You really can’t let that go, can you, Mrs C?  Perhaps if you had not written a potentially-libellous post in the first place then a screenshot would not have been taken of it.  The fact that you removed said post within a matter of hours speaks volumes.

I said there were many who were amazed at the granting of that planning permission some of whom (including me) thought to themselves "Oh yeah - so what's TDC up to then?" And then, a bit later, when the Tesco planning application got submitted all became clear.  

Yes I notice non agricultural events going on at the farm as well - mostly during the summer season and then a little later in year, the firework display. So, a small part of the farm for a quarter of the year at most is used for non farming activities. So? Such activities no doubt augment the Weeks income from their farming activities.  

Two examples of other local farms both of which have non agricultural income streams in addition to their farming generated income.

http://www.theaa.com/bed-and-breakfasts/dawlish-manor-farm-2632288

http://www.duckallerfarm.co.uk/

Lynne when you say 'much to the amazement etc'  do you mean a third party applied for and was granted planning permission on Mr Weeks land without his knowledge or consent?  Is that possible?   Or do you mean it was done with his consent but he was just surprised it was granted? 

Lynne. 

1. It's more than a quarter of the year. 

2. You say "a small part of the farm", I assume you mean a small part of Warren Farm rather than his overall landholding, yet you've not defined the area that these two or three fields cover in proportion to the whole area of Warren Farm. The reason this is important (you asked "So?"), is because his supporters keep taking about this being Grade 1 agricultural land when they say that alternative land is unsuitable for his business. Yet an undefined proportion of this Warren Farm land is used for non-agricultural purposes. This is why some people are being as cynical about Farmer Weeks as others are being about TDC. 

3.  Farmer Weeks was happy to be paid for his land when he put in for planning permission for the football stadium. What's changed since then?

4. Those other farming businesses aren't using two or three fields for their secondary income streams. By the by, Duck Aller Farm meats are fantastic, likewise their Wholesome Hog roasts!

@Mcjprc - from what I understand Mr Weekes knew of the planning application (being the landowner he would have been notified by TDC). What was a surprise was that planning permission was granted.      

So did Mr Weeks have to give consent?  Is he open to alternative uses?  If he was being offered a development price rather than an agricultural price for the land, would he be more amenable?  

@ JC

1. If you know that it is for more than a quarter of the year then please do tell us all what, when, and where these non agricultural activities take place.

2. I am talking about Warren Farm. All I know is what my eyes have told me -that the carboot runs from beginning of June through to 2nd/3rd week September. That the Dare devil ride turns up sometime late July through to end of August(ish). That there are holiday caravans sited on the farm for some weeks during the summer. That various vehicles concerned with the fair are parked there during carnival week. All of that I know because you can see it all from the road and it is all concentrated on one part of Warren Farm (2 possibly 3 fields at most).

3. So, the reason that is important is because where that land is sited enables those tourist orientated activities to take place. If he loses that land he loses that income and Dawlish and the Warren lose the activities.

4. But it is not only that land that he will lose. He will lose the rest of Warren Farm as well, which if you look at my post of today's date timed 09.01 is used for agricultural purposes.

5. I am not sure who it was who put in for the planning application re the football pitch. I cannot recall the planning application reference and I cannot trace it on TDC planning portal. I wish I could. Even if it were Richard (and I don't think it was but like I've just said I cannot prove that one way or the other) losing one field might have been manageable. Indeed it might have proven (via rent payable to him) more financially viable than it being used for agriculture.

But we are not talking about the loss of one field now are we. We are talking about the loss of the whole of Warren Farm. A completely different scenario altogether.

6. The point I am making about those other farms is that they need secondary income streams. Richard Weeks gets that by way of what I have outlined in (2) above.  

What % of the land that TDC want as a coastal park is grade 1 agricultual land?

The best I can do to answer that is this:

Warren Farm is 50 acres. TDC is looking at 51 acres in total for the coastal park. 57.3% (15.3hectares) of the site is grade 1 agricultual land.  

@Mcjprc - my answer to all three of your questions is "I don't know". There is a limit to my general and public knowledge of matters relating to Warren Farm and an even greater limit to my knowledge of the Weeks' family personal affairs.

I can only suggest that you and JC and anyone else who wishes to have answers to questions of a more personal nature, and that I cannot possibly answer, contact Richard Weekes direct. I'll post his contact details on here for you all.  

This email address should get you to him: eastdonfarm@aol.com  

@Mrs C

If you are so sure that your comments were not potentially libellous, why did you remove the post so swiftly?  Didn't quite have the courage to leave it up for all to see? 

Lynne, thanks for taking the time today to respond to my queries. 

I must have missed that apology Mrs C, when did you post that?  You certainly don't like it when you are taken to task, do you? Get used to it, lovey.

Lynne, this isn't about wanting to dig into Mr Weeks personal circumstances it's about presenting a balanced picture.  I support the injustice of his situation, I even think if a CPO went ahead he should be compensated at a commercial rate not an agricultural rate.  I'd just like to know what, ultimately, I'm supporting - no sale or a sale at a fair price.   You're pressing his case very hard here so it's inevitable you'll get a few questions. 

I am not aware of any stance except the no sale one.

Whether TDC could compensate him at a commercial rate (how would that be determined?) I don't know, but I would doubt it. If the land they want is designated as agricultual land then I strongly suspect that it would be that value they would give him, that they would have to give him. Remember that TDC's money is public money.

I'm pressing his case because I am really really ****** off with the way he has been treated since 2011 by the powers that be.

I may not change a thing but I am doing my damnest to make sure that as many people as possible know what has happened and what is continuing to happen.

Appalling behaviour absolutely appalling.

There but for the grace of God 'n all that.  

Tesco put in planning to build a supermarket on Sandy Lane playing fields in 2007. At that time they offered to buy some houses around that area.

They were also looking to purchase the field along the Warren Road for a football pitch plus land at Secmaton Lane for a Foolball social club.

Since Burneside has now moderated the 'libel' to 'potential libel' is he backtracking because he's realised that falsely accusing someone of libel is also libellous? 

You honestly think 'anonymous' exists on the Internet?!  How very naive.

Venom-filled post  - there goes your psychological projection again.

You really still don’t get it, do you, Dorian? 

To libel somebody you have to write or broadcast an untruth that harms a real person’s reputation.  Mrs C (aka Judith Chalmers) is not a real person, she is an anonymous pen name on Dawlish.com, a piece of fiction if you like.  If the person behind Mrs C wishes to sue for libel under the name of Mrs C, I suspect she may well be laughed out of court.

Actually Burneside, I think you're putting the cart before the horse.   Mrs C's real identity would inevitably be revealed if your allegations of libel were to be pursued in the first place.   

It is possible to defame a pseudonym but it's a complex area where in the final analysis damages awarded would have to make it a worthwhile case to bring.  A cat fight on Dawlish.com is not going to go the distance.   

The rule of thumb is never make any allegations you can't prove, they're out in the ether forever.

Now can we get back to the thread.  This need to have the last word means virtually every thread is being hijacked, and it's tiresome. 

Thank you Mcjrpc

I've now managed to find the planning details concerning the football pitch at Warren Farm.

Planning reference 07/02022/Maj

This link should take you to the webpage concerning it. 

http://gis.teignbridge.gov.uk/TeignbridgePlanningOnline/Results.aspx?Type=Application&Refval=07/02022/MAJ

Unfortunately when I click on associated documents (see bottom left hand of page) which should take me to all the correspondence etc concerning this application it tells me 'the system is currently unavailable'. 

Oh hum I shall just have to contact TDC planning department and ask them if they can rectify it then. 

Teignbridge have just gotten back to say IT are looking into it.

In the meantime I thought I would do a search on the name and address of the applicant as shown on that link I've given. The result would suggest it was the football side that put the application in.

• Football - Teignbridge District Council

  www.teignbridge.gov.uk/article/719/Football - Similarto Football - Teignbridge District Council

  Exminster Nr Exeter EX6 8BN 01392 823960 gilpin.exminster@btopenworld. ... Soccer (last udated December 2006) Terry Moore 16 Penny Close Exminster

• [PDF]

  Download - PIONEER YOUTH LEAGUE Charter Standard ...

  www.pioneeryl.co.uk/LeagueDocuments/download/21382

  Terry Moore. 16 Penny Close. Exminster. Exeter. EX6 8SU terrymoore@fsmail. net. To Be received On Or Before 31st May 2014. COST PER TEAM FOR 2014 / ...

That was Dawlish United not Dawlish Town Town was goingto have a stadium built at Langdon

yes. thanks for pointing that out @roberta. that there were two football teams at time can be confusing. i knew it was dawlish united/warren farm and i remember also tesco saying that they had been looking for sites for a new football stadium (complex as well i think it was) for dawlish town but i was never sure that they had found somewhere. did that ever get as far as a planning application do you know?

@19.35: to answer my own question. I cannot find any trace of any planning application being submitted by anyone re football facilities of any kind in the Secmaton/Langdon area of Dawlish during 2007 and early 2008. By May 2008 Tesco publicly announced that it was withdrawing from trying to get a store on Sandy Lane Playing Fields and was looking at putting one on Ladies Mile Holiday Park instead. So, although Tesco/Dawlish Town football club (as then was) may originally have had designs on a new stadium somewhere it never got as far as a planning application.        

I was told if Tesco had got the planning permission a new stadium would be built for them at Langdon, thats all I know

So, if, just say, if, the Tesco building a store at Sandy Lane had happened then I imagine that Dawlish United would now be looking for a new pitch (pitches?) somewhere else as that land at Warren Farm would now be designated as being part of the proposd coastal park SANGS, and a football stadium over at Langdon/Secmaton might have well and truly messed up the amount of land available for house building over there. Mind you there would have been more land available at Shutterton because Sainsbury's wouldn't have been there..............

But to return to the present.

I see in this week's Gazette that the Lib Dems are still running with this Warren Farm/Sangs coastal park issue. I've asked this before, but I'll ask it again:, why are the Lib Dems being so publicly supportive of Richard Weeks and his family but we still hear nothing from the Conservatives about this matter.    

Don't forget Langdon Hospital already have a full size football pitch on the right as you enter the site, see http://sports-facilities.co.uk/sites/view/6015866.  There is also space for stands etc and a second pitch could be created above the current one if the ground was levelled much like the set up at Sandy Lane without impacting on the DA2 housing allocation. I found the below as proof that other organisations also use the site and if you check you will all see that it is outside of the DA2 as the site road is the dividing line (http://www.teignbridge.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=42560&p=0).  

http://parasport.org.uk/find-a-club/detail/exeter-city-ability-counts-fc 

The club runs several sessions for players with disabilities, however they can't cater for individuals in wheelchairs, but if they get in touch with the club they can find an alternative session/club in the area. Sessions they offer: Mondays 2-3:30pm at King George V Playing Fields, £3 per session, players aged 16+Thursdays 5-6pm at Langdon Hospital Sports Field, Exeter Road, £3 per session, players aged 18+ They also run sessions for female players aged 16+ with all disabilites and coaching sessions and teams for boys and girls age 8- 16 with sensory, learning and physical disabilities. Please contact David Carpenter on 01626 323560/07912 089838 or david.carpenter@devonfa.com for details of sessions available. In the winter months they train at Dawlish Leisure Centre. 

The planning documents relating to the application for football pitches at Warren Farm are now available to read online. Just click on the link I have given above and then click on associated documents which can be found to the bottom left hand side of the webpage.

Kaz - ah! so perhaps that football pitch at Langdon Hospital is what Tesco/Dawlish Town (as was) had their eyes on? We will never know.    

https://www.facebook.com/warrenfarmdawlish/photos/a.383900845094434.1073741829.373920586092460/434735340010984/?type=1&fref=nf

Feeling positive... Had a phone call today from the C.L.A chief Surveyor based in London.He wants to visit Warren Farm and discuss progress so far against the possible compulsory purchase of the farm by T.D.C (from Warren Farm's facebook page for those who haven't got Facebook).