General Discussion

The not so recent demise of Union man Bob Crow is more than sad, it is shocking, because now the ordinary people of this country no longer have anybody speaking up for them, because the British Labour party is no longer the party that it was.

I knew Bob Crow stood for re- nationalisation of the railways and utilities, and not privatisation, and he believed as I do, in universal non means tested benefits paid out, because when unemployed and/or retired, we pay taxes and National Insurance contributions all our working lives.  It’s a simple premise.

Bob Crow was a working class hero because he stayed true to his working class roots, Bob Crow never bought his Council House, he remained in the council house he was born and raised in, and I feel very strongly that if every working man and woman in this country had taken Bob Crow’s example, we would never have had Thatcherism, or for that matter this rotten Tory lead coalition.

It boils down to the fact that Bob Crow never sold out his working class roots, he was proud of being working class, and we need more people like him, standing up for the rights of ordinary people.

You are quite right, Crow did live in a council house (but certainly not the one he was born and raised in), despite receiving a salary in excess of £140,000.  I'm damn sure social housing wasn't intended for people on that kind of money.

burnside, I never believed that council houses should have been sold off by Thatcher.  I believe Bob Crowe was making the point that there is nothing wrong with living in a rented council house, 70 per cent of European's rent.

I dont think it matters how much a person earns, they have a right to live where they like.

The trouble is that council houses are looked down on in todays Britain, in favour of home ownership.

The trouble with owning a home is getting a mortage.  How can a person do that when the government of the day continues Thatchers ethos of driving down wages in our short term low waged insecure competitive deregulated free market economy.?

I'm a socialist but I absolutely disagree with you Warrior.  With that kind of salary you should step aside and let less well off people have the social housing, not remain on a 'point of principle'.  That's not what social housing should be used for and it insults those who need it most.  

Mcjrpc, Im a European Democratic Socialist because Im pro-European.  I have long believed that Western Europe's ideols and culture should be adopted by us British.

I think we should have in Britain a mixture of rented housing, and mortgages like they do in Scandinavia and Western Europe.

This ever so charitable attitude of council housing being only for poor people is past its sell by date.

We need to change attitudes in this country about renting housing, and home ownership.

I agree, plenty of European countries are not hung up on home ownership.  However, here, when it came to council estates, they were always an indication of your social status and the prejudice that ensued.  Have you lived on one?  These days I like that I can walk past a house and not have any idea if it's owned or rented, that's how it should be.   I don't suppose it would happen but rent control would be a good way of stabilising the private sector - they should have applied it to all former council housing stock.  

Mcjrpc, Across the EU and Scandinavia, rented housing is built alongside owned homes, there are no stigmas attached to rented housing.

But lets be honest, there is snobbery and class entrenched views about housing in general in Britain and politicians play to it.

Rent control will never happen in Britain, while we have the deregulated free market we have.

They had rent control in New York for years. Mind you, that got bent out of shape and is applying less and less. 

These days planning permission for new developments here often requires a proportion given to social housing  - isn't that in line with your idea of how it should be? 

They have low rent districts in America, but I dont know where particularly ?

I simply believe that everybody has a right to a home, we arent all born with silver spoons in our mouths.

Bob Crow did very well for himself as Burnside points out, Not bad hey £140,000 wage and in a Council house and holidaying on the beach abroad whilst telling his troops to go on strike lol.

Warrior you are banging your head against a brickwall people are more educated now in 2014 than in Labour Socialism days. The majority of people dont want to go back to days when the government tell you what to do and nationalism and the Government running everything..

We will see in 2015. Maybe Tony Blair will make a return!!!

wondering, Bob Crowe was a Union man voted into this position by his members who knew what his income was.  He did a great and powerful job.

Britain will never get anywhere with people like yourself amongst the public, because Britain has to move on.

Traditional Labour was never Socialist, and Tony Blair's New Labour Government embraced Thatcherism for 13 years, so Britain has never ever been Socialist.

The traditional Labour party did their very best for the ordinary people of Britain via the creation of the National Health Service, and the welfare State.  Would you decry the people of these great instituations.

I don't see how Bob Crow was working class on a salary with benefits of around £145k. What I do see is that he deprived a working class family from having a council property that he would not vacate. Even though he was quite capable of purchasing his own. Double standards if ever I saw it.

Council homes were originally developed to assist those who could not afford a home a starting block. The idea was for them to better themselves over time and then, if possible, purchase their own home. So vacating the council house for the next family in need of stable accomodation.

Council houses were not built for people to stay in them for enternity and handing them down through the generations to their offspring.

The entire benefits system is a disgrace because of the incompertent system in place to run it. Many genuine people are left wanting. Whilst spongers with no real need live the high life from it. 

ALLEMS,  firstly every single person in Britain whatever they earn, even millionaires, are working class, because they "work".

Secondly, it was Margaret Thatcher who stopped building council houses through the 80's and 90's.  It was not Bob Crowe who made a stand based on a principle.

They only way to house people is for the Government of the day to build houses for rent and to buy, and I admire Europe and Scandinavia for amalgamating the two.  This we have done in over 30 years.

The trouble with the British is that they are social climbers and class entrenched. And this has not done us any good as a nation....

What im saying, is that the British need adopt the European Scandivian culture in housing, there is no stigma attached to renting out there, and I am sure if you or anybody else spoke to a native of these countries and said that we British believe we are "bettering" ourselves when buying our own home other than renting, these natives of Europe and Scandinavia would think we were loopy.

Bob Crowe stuck to his principles.  There are no principles in the free market, particularly the homeownership housing market.

Sounds to me you want 'everyone' to stay on the bottom of the ladder and not want them to better themselves unless you thrive on 'envy'. and guess you dont like people like Sir Alan Sugar..Richard Branson etc .who started at the bottom and were inspired to get ahead and in turn create jobs for people

Wondering, if anybody has to try and convince you of the obvious, then you will never understand.

Suffice to say that anybody can thrive in life if they have the "will" to do something.  That's as natural as the day is long.  

My point is that Western Europe lead the word in manufacturing and industry, with good wages, much higher and fair income tax,  and a good State pension at the end of it all.

Solidarity between workers and mamagement, with State investment and subsidy when needed.

Warrior - you said "Suffice to say that anybody can thrive in life if they have the "will" to do something." 

I'll disagree with you on that.  Some people just don't have the wherewithal, be it intelligence, savvy, health, inspiration, opportunity, luck - many reasons, none within their control.  You've made it sound like all they need is determination, which is more of a right wing attitude than socialist.

You espouse Scandinavian and European ways and refer to the British as 'they'.  Out of interest, what nationality are you and what is your experience of living /working in Europe?

Mcjrpc.  I have never worked in Europe but have gained knowledge from learning about Western Europe's social and economic culture.

Im not talking about determination.  I am saying that some people literally know what they want to do, and by hook and by crook they do it.

The right wing are all about low income tax which we have, and a small State which we almost have.  I am neither.

I believe in the role of the State and what the State should provide for all of us care of income taxes and national insurance paid in when working.  I believe in a universal, well funded welfare State system as per Western Europe.  I also believe in a decent amount State pension when we reach retirement age which for both men and woman should be 55 years old, or 60 at the most.