General Discussion
In today's Dawlish Post. Planning ref: 14/01275/Ful, Dawlish. The Lawn, The Strand.
Demoliltion of single storey bandstand and erection of new cultural pavilion comprising performance space, exhibition/workshop space and accessible w.c.
The government announced at very short notice, the final round of bidding for the Coastal Communities Fund would open in March with a deadline for bids by the end of April.
This is the funding scheme that is paying almost £2 million towards the new Carlton Theatre, so we didn't want Dawlish to miss this opportunity.
You will have read in the Gazette that the Town Council employed consultants to prepare a design scheme up to the level required for a bid to be submitted. The regulations required that a planning application be registered with Teignbridge by Aptil 30th, or the bid would be invalid.
The Town Council has done this, and we now wait to hear if the funding bid passes the first stage examination.
We will be discussing at Town Council next Wednesday how to carry out Public Consultation on the ideas within the design brief. There will be no surprises as the scheme reflects the views we hear around the town about the need to remove the eyesore and replace it with something more fitting.
We have also included the option for a play park, carefully designed to fit in a discreet part of the Lawn, and manufactured from materials appropriate to the open nature of the Lawn. We will also be interested to see the results of public consultation on this too.
What was presented to the town council as a replacement for the bandstand was another bandstand but of Victorian design that could have glassed sides at a later date to make it an all year round structure. There was no mention of exhibition/ workshop space and accessible WC, and with such additions then the building sounds as though it goes well beyond a standard bandstand and more like a large pavilion.
It depends on the final design whether there will be any surprises, or not. Too often consultations are just window dressing to disguise the fact that the decisions have already been taken behind closed doors.
It didn't take long for the haters to start shouting. No doubt the same vociferous few who made up lies and spread misinformation about the Red Rock youth centre and likewise the Strand redevelopment. I wonder why good people like Michael bother, particularly when their efforts on behalf of the town are being undermined by someone else who supposedly represents the people.
Mrs C my post is purely a factual statement and is not intended to undermine anyone or any project. As for the Strand redevelopment I wholeheartedly supported it, as any one who attended relevant meetings would know. I wasn't around for the Red Rock development so cannot stand accused in that case. I intend to work hard to ensure that the redevelopment of the lawn represents the views of the people of Dawlish.
Well said. Some of the people on here are all to quick to play the 'haters' card and it is they who should look at themselves at times in their 'vociferous' statements and their accusations of 'bullying' to anyone making an innocent statement that they don't agree with or goes against what they say.
I think the Strand developement typifies the attitude of those in charge of turning Dawlish town center into another ill thought out fun fair for the tourist season without any thought or consideration for those who live here and pay their wages.
Why don't we just spend loads of money on a permanent fun fair for the lawn, hike up everyone's rates, charge extra for services that people already pay for and forget about the essential services that are in decline due to lack of funds!
Sounds like a great idea. If it works then it could be a great asset for performing arts in Dawlish - long needed even if it's not on the same scale as the Carlton development.
Do the people of Dawlish want this? I feel that the council is slowly eradicating many of the Victorian features of this town with items that detracted from Dawlish's unique look and feel. Why can't we just have the bandstand replaced with a victorian style, wrought iron bandstand. Why theme park around 45% to 50% of the existing lawn with items that are not inkeeping.
We've already experienced what the councils can do with the high street fiasco. Which in my opionion, not that Mrs C will be happy with it, is a very poorly constructed pavement area and seating that is a danger to sit on as it is so close to the road. We now have no barrier between the road and the lawn, other than another pavement, for the safety of those on the lawn, etc, etc.
It's just a project on spending money for the sake of it. I suppose the next stage will be to have electronic advertising screens and loudspeakers around the lawn and a ticket kiosk to allow paying customers admission!
Thats part of the problem with Dawlish we have stood still for to long you have to give the punters what they want and those that came to Dawlish because of the behind the times look are now dead or to frail to come. We need to cater for a new generation of visitors who want more than a stick of rock fish and chips and a sandy beach they can get that for half the price in Spain or Greece its time to step into the 21st century and stop moaning about what was thats gone start thinking about what could be. Get that bandstand removed and what is proposed sounds great just lets get on with it and all those with a glass half empty go get a top up and be a little positive.
The Strand's a fiasco?? Overall I happen to think it's much improved and the free half hour parking is most welcome.
Is this going to be the last year of Party in the Park, Carnival Week, and any other big event that relies on the open space of the Lawn?
What about the Air show, as they rely on the Large Open Space of the Lawn for the static display the day before, so will it be the end of that spectacular event also?
I sincerely hope not, for everyones sake.
(Standing by for the accusations of being negative, anti Dawlish, blah blah blah from the bully herself, you know who)
Carer, I don't care for bullies either yet it seems to me you single out Mrs C at every opportunity. Like her or not she at least is even handed when she dishes it out, she doesn't try to form a clique to have a go at one person in particular. Stick to the topic and move on.
I don't think the lawn should be given over to a playground either, there's already a decent one up by the Manor. And now that you mention it, if last year's Carnival Is anything to go by, I can't say I'm looking forward to this year's.
No Carer you didn't mention any names, but it was blindingly obvious who you meant from your comment ".... from the bully herself, you know who"
You clearly like to dish it out, but don't like receiving comments back from others about your behaviour, which frankly has been childish in the extreme. And so has Mrs C's on many occasions. I think the point that was being made by Mjrpc, that you have decided to ignore, is that many of the rest of us are fed up with BOTH of you sniping at each other and hijacking a number of topics to do so. So maybe now you can give it a rest, and that goes for BOTH of you.
New Bandstand Plan for Dawlish Lawn, image source: Teignbridge District Council
The '3D Image' (above) looks great, but what is the point of all the stuff behind it you can see in the Block Plan. Why not build the bandstand further back towards the bowling green to increase the viewing area. Also why is it at a strange angle, surely inline with the lawn would be better.
However, on the whole anything is better than the current bandstand which is an absolute eyesore.
It doesn't look like a bandstand to me! I think the roof is disproportionate and out of kilter with the space it occupies. What about a grass seeded roof in keeping with the lawn?
For what it's worth, my opinion is that the plans are fantastic and demonstrate a positive vision for this important part if our town. All we'd need then in this general area would be the play park like that at Teignmouth or Paignton.
Fingers crossed that that the funding application succeeds.
I actually quite like the look of it, it is a bit different and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Do like the idea of a grass seeded roof though Mcjrpc, that could look very nice.
I think it looks nice too, a nice modern addition to the town - it's certainlty not the worse building around......
Going off topic slightly, but as that picture has been posted (and absolutely no wish to offend those who run the cafe shown above) - but who owns it? Is it TDC?
The building is leased directly from Network Rail.
With regard ard to the other points. It seems inappropriate for me as a Councillor to say anything before the public consultation. This is one image from several that will be available for people to see and ask questions about. I'm sure that all the points raised so far will be dealt with.
i promise to list all the details for the consultation event as soon as they are finalised.
Do you know if Network Rail has been approached about the state of the building? Did the suits miss its state of delapidation when they were down here with the PM?
Yes, NR have been addressed on this issue, and of course everyone at the Council wants the situation improved. I don't have any knowledge of private discussions between Landlord and Tenant, so that is as much as I can tell you.
I don't know how it works but I doubt NR are responsible for the state of the promotional signage. Fair enough if the people who run it can't afford to replace it, but it's a disgrace, just take it down!!
To get back to the proposed pavilion and other works on the lawn.
There is a meeting of the full town council tonight. Meeting starts at 7.00pm. It is open to the public. Believe the pavilion proposal
and related issues are on the agenda.
I vote for the Victorian band stand ,and leave the Lawn alone ,it's a green lung in the Center of Dawlish for all to enjoy.mary cullenBrooklands
Wake up and smell the coffee its 2014 we need to move forward the above on the lawns would be the best thing ever to happen in this town.
I'll hazard a guess that the vast majority of people who post on here, and those others who read but don't post on here,
are over a certain age - let's say 40. And I also wonder if there is a similar age demographic for those who read our local newspapers?
I make those points (and I could be wrong of course as I have no way of supporting my assertion with facts) as I think it would be great if, in some way, the younger generation of the town could make their voice heard re these proposals for the pavilion etc (and that they could
also make their voice heard on other matters as well such as housing, jobs etc).
I wonder if DCC would run a survey with say year 10 and 11 and find out what they think of the plans for the bandstand my Daughters reaction was " thats brill will there be free wifi and charging points for iphones" but hey they have different priorities.
It goes without saying, in the year 2000 we were promised a glass bandstand in replace of the old one. It never happened and people got on their high horses moaning, and people to this day still moan about the millennium bandstand never coming to light.
This town is forever changing, the lawn will be the only bit of land we have left in a minute that has not got houses on it! We must learn to move with the time! The current bandstand has not always been there, neither has the lawn or the trees. Once being an open plain and the birth place of the Dawlish Lawn Tennis Club with multiple courts on the lawn. The fact is the lawn has changed to fit the needs.
How much do I like the design of the suggested pavilion, I don’t honestly know! What I do know is that people have put in tireless work, effort and commitment to get this in, to make suggestive change, and those people should be thanked.
There are lots of buildings in Dawlish that I feel should be considered for change and updating. I think the best assets other than large space of grass on the Lawn is the Bowling Club, would be nice to see that brought into the century and redeveloped.
No matter what the Council for the town does, they will always be wrong, someone is always going to not support. Victorian or not Victorian, it does not matter. Change is good. People have moaned for centuries that Teignbridge focuses on Teignmouth and Newton Abbot and never Dawlish, well actually our councillors as a town are taking these massive tasks on themselves and bravo I say!
Hoorah! good. But I did said the vast majority - not all.
I just get concerned that the 'grey vote' (of which I have to admit I am one) gets its voice heard much
louder than the non grey vote. Not only in terms of what should happen within this town in particular but also within this
country in general (because older people are much more likely to vote than younger people politicians court them and their
votes much more than they do young people.)
So....if the youngsters don't speak up for themselves perhaps us golden oldies have to speak up for 'em?.
(Sorry, slightly off topic)
If the "youngsters" can't be bothered to speak up on local, or national issues, then tough, it's their own fault if they don't like the outcome.
Thanks Leatash.
I was also wondering how the voices of parents with young children might be heard. Could the local nurseries/playgroups also be asked to take part in some kind of survey perhaps? Does Surestart still exist?
Well I wonder who the observer is? Such a pity they don't feel able to reveal who they really are! Again, a statement of fact not a judgement before anyone criticises my comment!
Leatash, we can have a structure on the lawn with free wifi (well in Dawlish that might be a challenge) and sockets for charging phones, iPads etc, without the structure completely taking over the lawn area. What we need is a structure which won't look old hat in five or ten years time!
@ Margaret
Well said. If it was made a bit smaller then it may look better and agreed, modern buildings don't look so good after a short lenght of time due to the frequent changes in architectural 'fads & fashion'.
Free wifi and charging points have nothing to do with the bandstand plans.
The bandstand in the plans looks awesome and with gigs on frequently, it will bring people into the town to use the shops that are currently struggling for business.
Remember how great and packed Party in the Park 2003 was? - Photos
@Margaret Swift - ms swift or mrs swift whichever it may be. to who i am should not matter, for i am a person with a care, a passion and an opinion. like you are too. i am someone who takes my passion and interest and looks at a wide picture and hold an opinion without becoming opinionated. i like 90% of the people on dawlish.com choose that people do not need to know who i am for me to be able talk freely and openly. it does not cross my mind that thier could be important people reading on here, the fact is i will remain neutral in my thoughts.
It may be hard for an egg to turn into a bird: it would be a jolly sight harder for it to learn to fly while remaining an egg. We are like eggs at present. And you cannot go on indefinitely being just an ordinary, decent egg. We must be hatched or go bad. Dawlish and anywhere and anything can be the same, sometimes you need to develop.
If the above bandstand happened in Teignmouth, people of Dawlish would be complaining highly that why can't we have it in Dawlish. The fact comes back and as you say and as I hope, I speak fact not judgement, I think those involved in this, the councillors of Dawlish and Dawlish on a whole are doing an amazing job for the town, and I will always support them at this rate.
Dear me! I have never said I do not support the replacement of the bandstand, I do support it wholeheartedly. What I do think is that we must get it right because whatever we replace it with will be with us for a very long time to come. I wholeheartedly believe that on this issue the people of Dawlish must have their say in what is put on their town centre lawn.
@Margaret Swift i don't see anyone actually saying you did not support it. and it appears to view that you clearly do support it, which is great. you might think the above design is not correct for what this town needs. as well as i agree with @Chris that places like the "molly macs" are just as worse in need of re-development and some areas that have been modernised do clearly look out of place.
I would not like to think that people of Dawlish will not have a say, far as I have seen and understand, the Town Council has put in for planning so therefore nothing is stopping anyone from supporting it, not supporting or saying, yes I think it's a great idea, but! And sending their suggestions in should they have any.
It's however fast becoming a soap box here.
@The Observer
I have followed the twists and turns of reaction to the illustration, but found myself locked out of discusssion because I lost my password! To the point though, the Town Council has agreed to exhibit the scheme quite separately from the processing of the Planning application. In fact the Town Council's Planning Committee can not pass comment on the application submitted by their own council, so anyone who wants their 'day in court' will have to find it at Teignbridge Council's Planning Committee.
The arrangements for public exhibition and consultation in Dawlish have to wait on agreement by all 16 councillors at the next Town Council on 4th June. I would have liked it to be taking place much earlier but another had a view that all 16 councillors should be involved in agreeing how it takes place. What seems to me more important is allowing as wide a section of the population to have the opportunity to ask about the aims of the scheme and passing their own comment, so as to allow the elected members decide what happens next. I'd like it displayed at the Strand Centre or the Shaftesbury Theatre for three days, including an evening and a weekend day. That should provide for those who work away during the week, or those who work during the day. The challenge is reaching the younger parents of children in the age groups which will be attracted to the playpark component.
To answer an earlier question, the bandstand sits forward of the present location bacause planners and a working party want to keep a direct path between the (reconstructed) footbridge over the Brook and the central steps on the Strand (opposite Boots). The present bandstand blocks that route. It is placed slightly to one side of the central axis to allow views of the playpark, slightly behind and to one side, and consequently is twisted to face down the length of the Lawn towards Jubilee Bridge. Hope that helps.
The joys of never remembering passwords, thank goodness for my little notebook with them all written down, even though they don't always work then! It's a shame that a public exhibition can't take place just yet, but it also good to know that in June it should be decided then and that we as public will be able to look in details and definition what we could see upon our lawn.
I think you have it right there indeed sir, asking people for comments and feedback is important and I certainly see nothing wrong in the way you are conducting it, some will like it some won't, then in the words of Frank Spencer, some mothers will av em, some mothers won't. I personally like it, maybe not that big, but I do like it, not only is it an attraction it's also a piece of art, something different, unique with many possible uses.
I must say though I think that Tucks Plot and the crazy golf is quite crazily a waste of a plot and should be tucked away. Surely would an idea not be to pedestrianize Tucks Plot and then have the play park where the crazy golf is currently. meaning that kids are safe from the roads and that parents can come straight off the beach and are persauded to stay in our town longer by their kids wanting to play and throwing tantrums if they cant! My kids have long grown to old for the play park thing now, however they have all said it would be great to have one there.
Tuck'sPlot is crying out for another solution, but there were challenges in deciding how to pitch our bid to Coastal Communities Fund while expecting support from Teignbridge District Council (the general land owner) for our proposals. In the very short time allowed for the bid process we plumped for a scheme which would likely receive the agreement of TDC and achieve a straightforward leasing arrangement. We also felt that if our bid succeeded, then we would be in a position to proceed more rapidly to resolve other corners of the Lawn and Tuck's Plot, but they could not be concluded in the 30 days available to us.
Our architects also had their eyes on Tuck's Plot and were keen to see a water play sculpture garden there! We were more cautious and are aiming for a dry play area by the bandstand that will be suited younger children, perhaps.
Well Observer, it did take me some time to try and work out what you were trying to say with the bird and eggs and from your comment , quote, "sometimes you need to develop" I took that to mean I needed to develop and I was not supporting a replacement bandstand. The eyesore we have now, which no doubt looked very modern when it was built, does need replacing but, as I said in the Council meeting last Wednesday, we really need to avoid the mistakes previous Councils made at Dawlish Warren when the very essence of the Warren was changed forever with the replacement of the little shops with the giant structure we have now. Do we really need a huge replacement structure built on the lawn that looks modern today but may not be quite so trendy in five or ten years time? Why do some people have problems with large open spaces which enable many people to sit and enjoy quiet reflection, a read of the paper or book etc. A replacement bandstand is desperately needed but do we need an Arts Pavillion? These are some of the questions the people of Dawlish need to ask themselves and then need to let the Councillors know their views.
@Robert Vickery dawlish as you will know is reknowned and has a few items throughout the year that without would kill of our town alltogether. by taking up more room with a play park on the lawn these few events that work incredibly hard will loose out and will no longer be able to be accommodated on the lawn, this will be extremely sad. on another note a water feature/play park on tucks plot would be spot on. the new pavillion and/or a new pavillon is spot on whatever it may look like, but the rest has to be kept open. i think it would a massive blow to loose the open space.
@Margaret Swift not it did not mean you need to develop, but dawlish, certain buildings and factors about the town. whether we replace it with a shed, a victorian band style, the proprosed bandstand or something else. i'm not fused myself. yes i tend to agree it does not need to massive, does not need to have too much within it. i don't think an arts pavillion will aide the town in any form, in fact it will be a good thing one year and then become a rarity. it should be built for purpose, events, entertainment, the town etc.
I'm sure the council will do all by due process and I look forward to an outcome.
With regard to the proposed new Play Park on the Lawn, what is going to happen to the (hardly used) play park two hundred yards away at the Manor?
It's a genuinely interesting question Carer as to whether the play park in Manor Park is little used.
If that is the case, why?
There is the small play park up near Third Avenue, but other than that nothing in the town centre.
Do children not use play parks any more? The evidence of Teignmouth sea front says they do
Is the Manor play park too far from the main shopping and recreation area?
The plans include the option for a play park on the lawn, in a small section and designed òf materials appropriate to the location (That is to say, not nasty garish plastic). Is this the right offer to encourage young families to spend more time in the town?
The proposed bandstand would take up less than a third of the space on the Lawn that is currently taken over by the current eyesore and Tarmac apron. It is also carefully positioned to ávoid the current mistake of being placed in the centre of eyelines on the Lawn which makes the eyesore even more of a dominating feature.
The extra space released could be compłetely returned to grass, or maybe some of it could be used for a play park?
As a town councillor, I don't say "This is what it must be", rather "This is what it could be". The important thing now is to hold public consultation with a lot more information than the one image seen so far. That will enable the people can tell us what they want.
The joy of this is that people can write the reasons why they think this, not just "Yes/No", "Agree/Disagree". For the Neighbourhoòd Plan we received a report on Consultation responses that ran to 456 pages. It's the most useful thing I've ever been given as a town councillor. I read every comment and still refer back to it when I need help in understanding what people in our community want.
We also need to await the outcome of the stage 1 bid to Coastal Communities, for without money nothing will happen and the eyesore will remain
I feel that this planning application with a target date of the 24th June 2014 is starting to smell a bit like the Manor House fiasco. Why do I keep hearing comments about letting the people have their say as to what they would like. Well after money has already been spent on detailed plans, 3D images and planning already submitted awaiting approval.
If, and I say if, the Dawlish people had been treated with the respect they deserve as adults and been given the oportunity to input at the beginning, money, resources and time could have been spent on other things.
Also, I don't mean ask the people of Dawlish what they would like and then completely ignore their views.
I understand your question, and the answer lies in the timing of the Coastal Communities Fund. It was suddenly announced in March that there would be an application round. Further that this would be the final round ever. The Secretary of State went further and said that priority would be given to storm hit towns.
For Dawlish, it was too good an opportunity to pass by. BUT the rules said that an application had to be submitted by April 30th and backed up by a registered planning application.
The town council moved heaven and earth to get a bid and planning application together, so that Dawlish will get her chance along with all the other towns. Put simply, you have to turn up to be in the race.
i would hope that most people in Dawlish look back on the past three years and say that the current town council is there working hard and listening to what the public says. I've made a real effort to keep the communication going on Eyes and Dawlish.Com as I think that's part of my job as a town councillor.
If you would like to talk to me, I am always really glad to do this, just email me on mclay1990@gmail.com or phone 888378. We could have a coffee and you can tell me what you think should be done for Dawlish.
@michaelclayson seeing the picture of the manor before the playpark was there and looking back at the history in pictures when the manor had big iron gates and was a proper park with gardens and a pond etc, it was much more attractive that we see today, it would be lovely to restore that.
Dawlish has too many play parks in fairness, in fact my kids always used the Newlands ones opposed to the other. If they didn't use that they would cycle over to the holiday camps and use thiers!
Do we need to loose the Manor Play Park? I don't think so, could we reduce it's size a little, make it more attractive, of course we could.
I stand my the opnion I have that a playpark aswell as a pavillion on the "Lawn" will be a great mistake, it will loose the reason why it's called the "Lawn" and will disrupt the few small good events we have left in the town. I still think Tucks Plot is wasted and should a careful plan to make it more pedestrian friendly would really boost the town with a play park straight of the beach, cafes to it's side and safe and fun for all!
@leatash - have just sent you an e-mail via this website. can you let me know if you received it please. (webmaster, is there a problem do
you know?)
@michaelclayson - i appreciate your reply and after reading your comments as to why this project was handled in this way. i understand that the council had to be more expedient than normal in trying to secure the funds for dawlish.
I still standby my feelings that we should not be forced to disfigure Dawlish in a rushed attempt to gain funds from central governement. Dawlish should be treated with the respect she derserves.
@TheObserver - i agree the lawn would be nice if it was tastefully restored to the original victorian ideal. tucks plot would, in my mind, be a more favourable place for the other ameneties.
I agree with Councillor Clayson, you do not have to wait for the consultation, get in touch with your councillors now and let them know your views. I am happy for anyone to contact me on this issue as I feel passionately that we really must get it right for Dawlish. My contact details are on the council website. From the only image available it looks to be much larger than is being suggested, but it isn't just about size, it is about design as well. Will what is proposed still look trendy in five or ten years time? On the issue of the playpark, I do think we need something but the positioning will be all important. I think The Observer and Allems have made some very valid points that need serious consideration.
Its all about location and how we can get people in our town and staying within when the do arrive. A play park straight of the beach instead of on the Lawn would boost massively. Kids would be screaming before they go on the beach and after they come of it that they want to go in the park, parents will give in and stay within the town longer. Surely this is what we want!
Then when the parents have had enough of the tantrums they can wonder up the lawn one day in the summer to find lovely music coming from the Lawn, a wide open space with festival buzzing atmosphere coming from a band playing on a newly contrusted unique bandstand!
When it comes to much they retire to the Manor, a park of natural beatuy, carefully landscaped with gardens for relaxing in and enjoying.
If we could create this kind of flow it would be much better than placing it all on the Lawn.
letter in today's Gazette:
It looks like a derelict shanty left to decay
Wednesday, 21 May 2014
Margaret Fountain, of Henty Avenue, Dawlish, writes:
When I opened the Dawlish Gazette without having reached for my reading glasses, on the front page I could see what I thought was a photograph of some building that had been caught in the recent gales, was still partially standing and waiting to be demolished.
The thought of spending out money on constructing a building which looks like a derelict shanty left to decay in some remote area, leaves me with the feeling that Dawlish has gone mad. I am sure that any visitor to Dawlish would not want to sit on the Lawn admiring this monstrosity, but on the other hand, looking at it may prevent a few people from having that extra few pints.
A cultural centre! Dawlish is a small seaside town designated for some years as being part of the tourism trade of this country. I don’t really think that with our lack of parking now in the town centre we would make much of a success of booking well known artists to perform here.
As for play parks, if the beach isn’t enough with the lawn adjacent to play on at high tide, there is also the Manor play park, the play park in the Avenues, another at the leisure centre adjacent to the skateboard area, and of course all the countryside at the back of Dawlish to explore.
but be quick because we are having to build on that to house all our new residents.
As a grey voter I hoped you might have printed some of the supportive letters too. Come on Dawlish-don't-want-it, where is your invective to rival Prince Charles 'monstrous carbuncle'? Perhaps when Margaret Fountain finds her reading glasses she will find a decent modern structure that might even be more enjoyable than the present municipal barn that spoils the Lawn.
One point of the Town Council's proposal is to recognise that Dawlish can no longer trade on an empty park with a string of charity fairs selling off surplus goods. Tourism is a business that seeks new experiences to drag people out of their humdrum lives, be it a bracing walk on a beach, a stimulating visit to oceanworld, or a venue where interesting events take place. It could be a marmalade congress in January, music and poetry for St Valentine's Day, a chocolate lesson for Easter, even an Elton John concert in April, and if Margaret Fountain can arrange that we may even call the new pavilion after her.
The Town Council will decide on 4th June when and how to exhibit the proposals and seek comment. Insulting comment may not be taken to heart but constructive ideas will certainly be considered before the project moves forward to the next stage of development. It is always easier to comment on a partly developed scheme than on an empty sheet of paper, and so the sequence forced on us by the timing of the Coastal Communities Fund may actually help the discussions.
I agree with the letter in the Gazette which says the structure looks like a "monstrous beetle". And that isn't being insulting, it's just stating the obvious.
@Robert Vickery - i have so far only looked at the edited version of the gazette online. thus only came across the one letter. when i go out later in the day i will buy a hard copy and see what else there is.
Posted that letter to generate other postings - which it did - yours.
For what it is worth the only opinion I have on the whole matter is that the present bandstand needs to be replaced. With what etc I have a completely open mind about. Hence comments and arguments pro and con the proposals are of particular interest. They might help to
make my mind up, they may not.
We have a busy weekend coming up on the Lawn, with events appealing (hopefully and weather permitting) to all ages
Saturday is very much a traditional family day with children's entertainments such as Punch and Judy; and a street market. They fit very well to the traditional Victorian bandstand model.
Sunday is a totally different kettle of fish with Party in the Park. A day of musical entertainment that some may hate, but the growing number if people that like their bands rocky or country will tell you is one of the best days of the year. Those bands struggle with the limitations of the current structure, and would find a traditional wrought iron Victorian bandstand impossible.
i think it would be great for us all to look at both events, understand their varied charms and then take forward our observations into the forthcoming consultation.
I agree the current bandstand needs to be replaced but am unsure on whether traditional or modern is preferable. Both have their merits but the scale of the new structure seems to be a concern to many. An example of a modern 'bandstand' can be seen in the Manor Gardens in Exmouth . If you get the chance to go along to their festival next week you will see what our town could provide to residents and vistors alike .
Tuckers plot would make an excellent playpark, perhaps the traffic flow could be redirected during the summer months so that the road over the bridge was closed off? (as they do in Teignmouth along the Seafront)
With regard to the Basket ball and Fitness area shown on the plans, not keen myself but hopefully the public and the younger members of the community will have their chance to put forward their ideas? what about the council sending out questionaires to the local schools?
From what I read, many are in favour of seeing the old Bandstand go and something new in it's situ, does it have to be so big, does it have to have an arts description inside, toliets etc, I don't think it really does. What I do think is that those working on this are doing an extemely hard job and they are not going to please everyone, they might not even please this generation but they might make it more welcoming for the next and futures to come
@DawlishPride despite changing the names from tuck's plot to tuckers plot which i don't agree with :d your quite right, there is pictures and i remember myself that jubilee bridge used to once see two way traffic and tucks plot was a people friendly place. crazy golf is a thing of the past and having a playpark beautiful designed as a garden playpark would look spot on and in the right location!
The reason that two way traffic was stopped on the bridge is it was deemed not to be strong enough for modern HGVs there could in theory be 2 on the bridge at the same time and that was decided many years ago HGVs have increased in size further since then. Tucks plot is not the place for a play park to many cars and dangerous for young children the lawn is the place its safe and theres loads of room for parents. The advantage of a modern building is it may bring in more party in the park type events a proper stage with changing rooms good lighting and sound systems may attract more bands we need a 21st century building lets try and drag Dawlish into the modern world. We are world famous for the Air Show the same could happen with the lawns i could see bands drama groups a bit of comedy think on folks this could be a money maker.
To some extend you are right, but you are so right you have forgotten something that is just as important. In this time some things are already established, well established such as the Air Show. If you replace the lawn and reduce it's size by including the likes of a play park within in it then companies and hard workers such as the Air Show, British Legion and Party In The Park are going to suffer massively from this. This area of open space is vital to the community and in a moment we will loose it and I can be sure that we will see these oragnisations who keep our town alive, struggle.
@the Observer - Just how much of the lawn would be 'lost' by the proposals? Might the Air Show, RBL, and Party in the Park actually gain from the proposed facilities? Just asking. As I've said above - I have a completely open mind about all of this at the moment. So am a bit forensic when it comes to why people think what they do (whether pro or con what is being proposed).
I find it strange that this structure is being considered when the money cant be found to run Red Rock centre, so how can the money be found to run this?
Will this be another white elephant in a a couple of years time?
@Carer - do we already have white elephants in dawlish then?
As for funding - guess you'd need to ask the government that. So try our MP. Ultimately its central government that controls the financial strings (and many other things besides) - despite all the cant coming from it about localism.
Dawlish Action for Youth is getting grants from the Town Council for services at Red Rock Centre. £10,000 last year and a further £10,000 this year.
I am assured by the County Council that the facility is not at risk from closure, and that the current review is likely to see a new partner agency working alongside Dawlish Action for Youth. Obviously we are keeping tabs on this to make sure promises are kept.
The money we are bidding for is coming from a national fund, whereas services such as Red Rock come from the County Council, so they are not in competition. I'm not saying this to convince you one way or another, just to answer what is a very fair question.
I find it strange that people make statements as a basis for fact, using assumptions that have in fact already been addressed in other published communications. This is what worries me about todays elections; that people will cast their votes based on what they think they've been told rather than what they've actually been told.
Thank you Michael for everything that you and your colleagues are doing to turn this town around. Your efforts are appreciated by many.
Well, having worked away from home all week I have just tonight caught up with all the comments regarding the replacement bandstand and with the articles and letters in the Gazette.
The bottom line for me is that the people of Dawlish should decide what is built on the lawn as whatever is built is something we will all have to live with for many years to come - I think the current bandstand has been in situ for around 40 years! It is not for Councillors to indulge their whims and decide what is best for Dawlish. I am sure a happy compromise can be reached but this time round Councillors need to listen to the people, that didn't happen in Dawlish Warren in 2001 and look what happened there! The uniqueness of the Warren was changed forever by replacing a row of quaint small shops with a single huge building which by any measure cannot be described as attractive.
You preferred the tatty rundown shacks down there? They were the equivalent to the tatty rundown carbuncle currently sitting in the middle of the lawn. The proposed replacement pavilion looks and sounds fantastic and we should rejoice that our forward-thinking Independent councillors are doing something for our town after years of Conservative/LibDem inertia and self-interest.
If these councillors hadn't have worked so hard to get these plans together in such a short period of time, then we may well have been stuck with that concrete cowshed for another 40 years! Margaret, in my opinion you need to look at the bigger picture - doing nothing was not an option. You and the public have already been told that there'll be a consultation, so please could you stop rocking the boat just to try to garner support from the vocal minority. Thanks.
No Mrs C I did not prefer the tatty rundown shacks but I would have preferred them to have been replaced with updated versions that maintained the uniqueness of Dawlish Warren. The Warren offered something no other seaside resort offered and we lost that USP when the awful monstrosity replaced the run down tatty shacks! And it is now proposed that the carbuncle is replaced with a giant woodlouse! Believe me, I do look at the bigger picture and question whether what is proposed will still look trendy and good in five or tens years time. I think not, but that is my personal view, which I am entitled to voice. Doing nothing is absolutely not an option but replacing the bandstand without genuinely listening to the views of the people of Dawlish will be a catastrophe for the town and people alike.
I am a truly independent Councillor. I had to resign from Voices for Dawlish because some in that group did not like my independent thinking and my independent views being voiced and they still don't! I don't need or want to garner support I simply speak my mind.
the small line concerns me the the most there @Margaret Swift, whether people or fellow councillors agree with your "independant thinking" or not, this nor public is the place to display dirty laundry.
However I am inclined to believe that it does look like a giant woodlouse. However it by a large margin better than we have at the moment, however I do not like it's size and it's proprosed use of the inside. Further and more strongly I don't agree with a playpark on the "Lawn" however they are my thoughts and I feel I given good and promising alternatives to be able to please all.
There are many buildings in Dawlish that need attention as soon as possible, and actually if time, money and thought went into it, they could really transform out town into something special indeed.
I don't do dirty laundry 'Observer', I tell it as it is and don't pretend all is 'Hunky Dory' when it isn't.
Will the front be open or are there folding doors, I can't quite make it out from the picture? What about putting Tourist Information in there and making better use of the space it currently occupies, that building is not particularly attractive.
Now that you mention it, it does look like a wood louse. Shouldn't be hard to address - sort the roof and don't use wood for its legs, it will weather and look grotty in time.
I agree, it will look grotty fairly quickly! I'm afraid I can't take credit for the apt description, my husband came up with that wonderful observation after seeing the picture in the Gazette!
@Mrs C - 'garner support from the vocal minority'. What is wrong with collecting support for the vocal minority? and how is this 'rocking the boat'?
@Margaret Swift - well i'm sorry but it is certainly they way it's coming over, airing of dirty laundry is something i'm not in favour of as a person. from what i read it's not exactly not "hunky dory". i know a lot of people who love the idea, and i know some that don't, i know others who wish to find a happy medium. it's not right and it's not wrong, its personal preference. something we should be able to give our views on but respect and accept that others may not share it.
Observer, please explain exactly what dirty laundry I am airing. If stating facts, ie removing small tatty huts and replacing them with one large building, which did change the character and essence of Dawlish Warren forever, is airing dirty laundry then your view and my view of what constitutes dirty laundry is very different. Believe me, I have not aired any dirty laundry, you would know if I had! It is not my style.
"It is not for Councillors to indulge their whims and decide what is best for Dawlish". = Airing Dirty Laundry
"I am a truly independent Councillor. I had to resign from Voices for Dawlish because some in that group did not like my independent thinking and my independent views being voiced and they still don't! I don't need or want to garner support I simply speak my mind". = Airing Dirty Laundry
"Councillors need to listen to the people, that didn't happen in Dawlish Warren in 2001 and look what happened there"! = Airing Dirty Laundry.
i'm sorry @Margaret Swift, though i do agree with many things that you are saying, and see your passion clearly, some of these items really are not needed here, this is nothing to do with how you feel councillors are working hard or not working hard for the town, or what you think they might think agaisnt you.
This is about what people want as individuals and that is seems to be clearly the Bandstand gone but not a "giant woodlouse" placed in it's position and the consideration of other buildings that could really do with the towns help!
If there is dirty laundry, it's flying way above my head! Please don't let this become another forum bitchfest.
@Mcjrpc & @Lynne not saying i don't disagree with either of you, because i do. still it's different to have passion and care for others and thier opinions then to introduce sniggers in your comments to items that put down others. not needed and no called for. I was asked to point out what I felt was Dirty Laundry by the person I felt was pushing it too much and I have.
On course what I don't understand is why we couldnt have 3 or 4 different designs, a vote by Dawlish people on what they want out of the options and then go from there. I understand from the above that in order to be considered for funding time was not a friend in this case, but could it be possible for now, 3 or 4 different alternatives to be drawn?
@The Observer - you may see dirty linen being aired by Margaret S. That's your perogative and your interpretation of her comments.
But I don't interpret them like that and neither it seems does Mcjrpc.
Agree with you totally though that perhaps we could have some different designs to think about.
If people reading this are interested, there is a letter along these lines sent to TDC planning department from Devon Gardens Trust. You can read it by clicking on the link in my very first post. Then look for the latest objection (dated yesterday I think) it should be from DGT. What they have to say is interesting (well I think it is).
Basketball area, seriously? Because that's what the council thinks the kids are crying out for? Get with the programme grandpa! It'll be an unused slab of tarmac within weeks.
Mcjrpc So you havent noticed the kids who shoot baskets every evening when weather permits a little out of touch i would say its the most used item on the lawns.
The basketball area is an option, that could or may not be included in any final version of the scheme
Assuming of course, we win any funding from CCF, and we expect there to be tough competition in this final round.
It was mentioned in earlier posts that it is vital to include the younger population in the forthcoming consultation. This to my mind is vital. Do they want a basketball area? Is it an idea whose time has passed? Do they like having it there to enjoy in the evenings while us oldies are watching Coronation Street?
The town council is serious in wanting to consult the people of Dawlish, and this has to mean we make the effort to find ways to include young people who are as likely to stay behind for Double Maths as to venture into the Strand Centre and fill out questionnaires.
In answer to your earlier question, there would be sliding or folding doors on the front, so as to ensure that any new facility can be used in the evenings and during inclement weather. Fine details of how this would work to create an internal area that can be used as a stage and/or activity space would be finalised during later design work if the funding is achieved.
Thank you for the info Michael, I agree a consultation should be inclusive of all ages. My view is a basketball area is incongruous (in time and location as it happens) but irrespective of that I support the aim to improve it. I think the comments by Devon Gardens Trust and other contributors to the planning application are constructive, they don't strike me as coming from an anti-change faction.
Leatash- yes, about as many as there are other folk drinking cans of lager, so where are the plans to build them a beer garden? 
Sadly I think a skate park would be more popular than a basketball court, but I don't think either are appropriate for the Lawn.
You make a good point. I first started coming to Dawlish shortly before the fire at Dawlish Warren. I don't doubt they were 'rundown shacks' but I remember being struck by how anodyne and characterless the replacement shop was and still is. There's an art to not throwing the baby out with the bath water and getting it wrong could be a disaster.
Well said Mcjrpc! And that is my only concern. We really must get it right! What we put on the lawn in the coming years we will have to live with for many years to come. I have repeatedly said that if the people of Dawlish want a large building on the lawn to primarily meet the needs of the small band of artists in Dawlish then so be it, but they need to know what they are agreeing to in the first place.
Again I'm not here for laundry airing and there was more of it in your post at one minute past 10.
Surely our councillors, differences apart should be working together with one another and not agaisnt! Seems like every takes everything to heart and too seriously to me. I mean for goodness sake, all Councillors, yourself included seem to be doing an amazing job for this town, in fact in the past couple of years they have seen more and dealt with so much more than I have ever seen before, and hats off to you all!
People have made valid points here and there is a lot the Council can pick up from this, which I hope they do indeed. However I think the bandstand as it currently is should be knocked down, I think something should replace it, something special, different! I don't like the idea at all regarding an art pavillion and think that it is way off line for what Dawlish requres, however I do think the person fronting it has done a bloody amazing job getting it to this, so bravro!
With regard to the 'rundown shacks' that used to be at the Warren, have any of you been to a beautiful town on the east coast called Southwold?
You need to take a look at the harbour area there, where not only will you find lots of 'rundown shacks', but lots of tourists as well, as these shacks are living history and befitting of the area.
No, I am not against any redevelopment/modernisation but we do need to think carefully about what is going on the Lawn.
Despite yesterdays weather, look at all the kids (and adults) having fun.
Bouncy castle attracting plenty of business along with other attractions.
Would another 'play park' on the lawn attract the same amount of attention?
Will there be room on the lawn for yesterdays attractions if this pavillion and play park were to be built or will it (Lawn) become a no go area for these type of amusements?
@michael clayson @Robert Vickery
Can you clairify something please. I totally appreciate the tight deadline and why that prempted any consultation with the Dawlish public
before the planning app. was submitted to TDC.
What I would like clarified is this. As with housing developments, is it possible that TDC could agree to outline planning permission for an unspecified bandstand/pavilion to replace the present bandstand on the lawn? That way the planning consent will be in place but options have been kept open as to what gets built. Also, could this situation apply should the present funding application be successful or is it the case that if the funding application is successful it is the scheme as shown on the present plans that would have to be built?
The rules of the Funding Scheme we are applying to state that we have to apply for Full Planning Approval at this stage.
The council has done this, but is 100% determined that nothing will be done that is contrary to the wishes of the Dawlish public.
We know that the consultation will provide many individual opinions, and there is no single scheme design that will please everyone. The importance of talking to people (As we have been doing in consultations over the past 10 years) is to get a message of the direction in which we should go. We know that people want the bandstand removed, now we are consulting at a deeper level on design issues around what might replace it.
If the public consultation requires changes to the proposed design we will either request Variations to any planning consent granted, or if it needs radical changes we will submit a completely new application.
If the message from the consultation is that a play park is not needed, or should be placed somewhere else, we will act on that too
This is a joint reply from Robert and me, and reflects the discussions that we had at Council on May 14th.
So, the message is, there's no need for anyone to get their knickers in a twist because there is still an opportunity for consultation. If anyone feels strongly they should submit their opinions to TDC, and if they don't they shouldn't grumble at the outcome. Can't say fairer than that.
The really critical issue will be how we capture the views of Dawlish residents to ensure we really do reflect what they want to happen to the lawn.
Getting the views of the folk of Dawlish is like pulling hens teeth just look at the Strand proposals if i remember correctly less than 500 people voted for either scheme i bet more folk will be voting for britains got talent.
Margaret - can you do a mock up of the plan in the library/Co-op/Sainsburys and leaflet/poster other shops too? If only 500 people care to offer an opinion then so be it, per capita that's a pretty healthy response rate by advertising standards.
@Mcjrcp There will be formal consultation but so far the only idea is to have three days when people can offer their views, you know, the usual unimaginative way of capturing views. We need to go broader and deeper with this consultation than ever before and I think you have hit upon an imaginative way to capture people's views. Alongside the plans we could perhaps produce a questionnaire for people to complete and return to the council, as not everyone can get to these consultation events through no fault of their own. We need a wide range of methods for gathering the views of the residents of Dawlish to ensure we hear from as many people as possible across all age groups. It would be good to hear the ideas of the residents about how they would like us to consult with them.
The town council agreed that proposals be brought to their meeting on June 4th outlining how the public consultation can be organised, and a paper is being prepared. There is a strong appetite amongst the councillors to reach as many disparate communities within Dawlish as possible, which is in line with earlier comments on this site about the importance of engaging everyone.
I'm sure that the options will extend beyond the old style church hall event. For example, we need to think in terms of social media and the ways in which an increasing number of people use that as their primary news source.
It promises to be an interesting discussion on June 4th, so do come along.
One idea to incorporate into the costing of the project is directional speakers, integral to the bandstand/lawn. This would mean the people on the Lawn could enjoy the music/event, but without bombarding those living around the Lawn with amplified sounds. Just a thought.
Voting buttons and something like surveymonkey.com would be a good way of soliciting the views of internet users.
I like Allems' idea of directional speakers, it must be difficult for those living around the Lawn who can't escape the noise.
I think using survey monkey is an excellent idea, particularly when used with voting buttons, but also allowing for comment on possible alternative designs if someone is voting against the current one.
I like it! The bandstand is long overdue for replacement and this, though modern, does not look out of place. I shall call it....The Woodlouse.
For the shops to survive and to encourage new shops to come to the town, we have to encourage people to come and spend time here. Dawlish is well know nationally, and indeed internationally, for its' waterfowl and black swans, yet whenever anyone discusses anything about the town centre and the lawn, and visitor attractions nothing is ever mentioned about improving the brook and the environment for these wonderful waterfowl. Have you ever seen the delight on children's faces when they see the tufted ducks and the many varieties we have there. When I saw the plans for the new building - I found the design very attractive.. I agree with comments to say it should be 'greener' with a 'grass roof' perhaps. My main concern though is that a building like that needs to be occupied the whole time, otherwise it will quickly become just a white elephant. In my mind it would make a lot of sense to use the building as a visitor centre for the waterfowl, with films giving the history of the waterfowl - how they came to be there, the work involved in maintaining them, the environmental impact and so on. A program of films could also include Brunel's contribution - the development of the atmospheric railway. I'm sure the history society and the museum could come up with excellent ideas. This may lead to the information centre moving to the new building, and perhaps something else coming into their building. Just an idea to move the discussion forward. The use of the front of the building as a stage area could be incorporated, but should not be the prime use of the building. Just my opinion.
Bang on the ball, Howard. The 'foyer' can be used creatively through video and other tele-media to illustrate such themes on the press of a button. It's there to offer visitors a taste of Dawlish and a better appreciation of the opportunities for their own enjoyment. When the performance stage (i.e.bandstand) is not in use the folding/sliding glazed front will allow it to be joined to the foyer and talks can be given to visiting parties, or other activities that people may want. It is not inten ded to rival the Shaftesbury Theatre for large audiences or more structured presentations. On the matter of the 'green' roof, the challenge would be to keep the growing medium on the steeper slopes, and the added weight would cost more to construct.
@Margaret Swift your comment "there will be formal consultation but so far the only idea is to have three days when people can offer their views, you know, the usual unimaginative way of capturing views, " takes my information to you about the availability of the Strand Hall when those who wish to pour over plans, out of context. You know that you have insisted the full Town Council determines how consultation be carried out, and for that we have to wait until the Council meeting on June 4th. I am looking forward to hearing your proposals, as well as a debate on proposals that will be brought forward by the Client Group on other ways to stimulate responses. A survey monkey questionnaire will be one of the means to be tabled as well as direct approaches to interested groups.
If the Lawn is to be given over to something else (basketball area) how about developing the brook, widening it, landscaping it etc to make it even more of a focal point. Or that miniature boating lake that people have talked about previously. What about a thatched roof for the pavilion, expensive maybe, but marrying a local tradition with an otherwise modern building.
Howard, I agree with much of what you say but many people feel the proposed design of the building will not enhance the lawn area or the centre of Dawlish and many people feel it is too large. We will have precious little left of the lawn area if the proposed plans are put in place. I know that at least one Councillor feels that the lawn is just a large open space and recently asked how long can people sit and stare at a large open space. Well, some people like the open spaces, you only need to look at the numbers of families enjoying the lawn space on any day of the week but particularly at weekends. As long as we let the people of Dawlish decide what they want then I do not have a problem but the process so far has not been entirely open and above board and that is a real concern for me.
Its become an even larger open space snce the Strand Regeneration, the townspeople were not listened to then ie wall removed to allow for parking on Lawnside then changed last minute to create the yellow brick road to nowhere and parking numbers reduced to use shop side, instead of what was voted on
@roberta sorry, a factual correction needed, i am afraid. the consultations managed by dcc showed a preference for removing the wall. the safety engineers insisted on a footpath to stop vehicles careering straight down a planted bank. although some people asked for echelon parking on the lawn side it was not workable without massive pruning of roots and tree surgery of overhanging branches of all the trees along the strand side, because echelon parking takes up a lot of room. it would also need the support of retaining walls at the change of level. finally, when the votes were counted by dcc the choice between pedestrianisation and keeping the traffic flow was evenly balanced and dcc decided that if dawlish couldn't clearly make up its mind, then they would have to do it for us.
You obviously don't like the new Lawn-side pavement but I have heard overwhelming support for the way things are now. Even Teignmouth is envious.
The set of plans Im talking about were where the wall came down a pavement was built and he we had parallel parking alongside, freeing up the shopside with the exception of 2 loading bays and some disabled spaces. Now if I dreamt this so did several others. The shopside would have benefited and people would have been able to sit outside cafes without cars parking. I and a few others realised very quickly when the pavement started that it was coming too far out into the road. What was the benefit of removing the wall??? if parking was going on that side it would have meant drivers could alight on the pavement (as in Brunswick) without going into the road. That was the plans I agreed with and thought were being implemented
If it helps, my memory is that the request for echelon parking was dismissed by DCC and Teignbridge soon after I became a Councillor. The reason being that most of the trees on that side of the Lawn would have been fatally damaged by the work that would be required.
Since then, my Mother has become disabled. I've been on a massive learning curve about how difficult it is to get people out of cars when they have mobility damage. The idea of doing that, and then having to cross the road fills me with horror. Whereas I've never yet failed to find a parking spot near a cafe on the Strand or close to Piece of Cake on Brunswick.
Personally, as a dogwalker, I really value the opportunity of the clearer path on the Lawnside to be able to get along quicker. Equally so on days when I don't have a dog in tow, but want to bomb along quickly.
Maybe the truth is that on all these issues, there is no one solution that is right for everyone. We all see things very personally because we love living in Dawlish.
I'd have liked a wider pavement but definitely not at the cost of losing the trees. If the parallel parking was Lawn-side then pedestrians and outdoor cafe users would have traffic passing them shop-side without the barrier of parked cars, which might not be everyone's cup of tea either. As Michael pointed out, the Lawn side path is good to get out of the way of shoppers and when I was down there just now it was being used as much as the shop side. I don't know if business has improved for the shops but The Strand looks better and it seems that congestion has improved because there aren't so many delays caused by people parking up on both sides of the road. I think it's an improvement, and overall a good decision by DDC
I think it would be a good idea if this derelict building next to the play park at Sandy Lane was demolished and the play park extended.
It would make more sense to have a decent play park in the area where you have the skate park and Leisure Centre and not in the middle of town!
Totally get where you're coming from. The problem we have is that the Fund being applied to wouldn't consider giving money for this as a project because it is not linked to improving the economic future of the town. I will pass the suggestion on though, in case a different funding scheme might be approached to help improve facilities at Sandy Lane.
Quote by Councillor Vickery above re the development of the Strand "when the votes were counted by DCC". There was no voting on the options for the development of the Strand, people expressed their views and then we were all told it was a 50/50 split between pedestrianisation or not. But that was not a scientific and conclusive way of deciding what the people of Dawlish really wanted. I had grave reservations at the time and I do now with the development of the lawn. Unless we have a vote by the people of Dawlish then we are reliant on Councillors from TDC and DTC evaluating who said what and how many said one thing or the other. The development of the lawn is such a crucial issue that this time round we really do have to be 150% sure of what the people of Dawlish really want and to do that we need to be more scientific and forensic in our approach to consultation. So, how do we really find out what the people of Dawlish want? Suggestions welcome here and/or to my email address which can be found on the Dawlish Town Council website.
You were wrong with your overly-dramatic "grave doubts" then, and in my opinion you are now. Still, it gives that dirty laundry yet another airing...
How many votes would qualify as being enough to say what the the people of Dawlish want? The same number who voted for the Strand options? That wasn't democracy, that was lip service to the vocal minority.
You'd be well advised to read the letter in the Gazette about these pointless public consultations. You were elected to make decisions - so just bloody well make them and get on with it for gods sake. Thanks.
OK Mrs C, have it your way, and if you end up hating what is built, then you can keep your trap shut.
Oh Dear, I really have rattled your cage! I have no doubts about the value to the regeneration of the Strand just the less than scientific way in which views were collected and analysed and think that this time round we have to be far more sophisticated in how we approach consultation. We were elected to listen to the people of Dawlish and represent their views, not simply implement the whims of Councillors, myself included. As for dirty laundry, there is plenty of it and none of it has been aired here........yet!
Well if it does get the go ahead I'm looking forward to the overhanging roof along the side making a handy shelter for illicit smoking, drinking and urinating. That'll be my evenings sorted.
@Mrs C, this is a site for people to air their feelings. i do not feel that resorting to your angry torrade above really is in keeping with the way you should treat others on this site. take a chill pill and get a little perspective.
Whatever you say ALLEMS. Or whatever you're calling yourself today. The word is "tirade" by the by.
Margaret, your nasty little threats are very unprofessional.
All- Just a request. Any chance the baiting and biting could stop?. Difficult I appreciate. But have a try.
@ZIGGY totally agree with you re the old blackdown hut. i'm also very concerned about the upkeep of the leisure centre. there's no point in getting funds for new buildings to add to the portfolio if you can't upkeep any of them. the leak problem in the leisure centre is quite bad there now and has been getting worse for a while. i don't suppose funds are allocated for this sort of thing as it's not as sexy as a new building ...
The current planning application allows for public comment and in itself is a public consultation isn't it? I've put my for pence worth of support in and anyone else is welcome to do so. Let's get on wth the 21st century. There will still be plenty of Victorian buildings left in Dawlish.
The Town Council are to debate and decide on Wednesday evening this week how to consult with the people of Dawlish.
Do come along to the council meeting and share your ideas about how best we can really reflect and represent your views and not the whims of Councillors. What happens in Dawlish over the next few months is entirely up to you the residents, we need to know what you think and what you want to happen to your lawn!
The plans for the replacement bandstand can be viewed at The Open Daw thanks to a Dawlish resident who purchased a set of the plans and to Open Daw who agreed to have them on display for the public to view.
There is to be a public consultation towards the end of June with a survey, available both on-line and in paper versions, for people to complete and have their say about what should be built on the lawn.
The public consultation on the proposals for the lawn starts next week. Thursday, Friday and Saturday at the Strand Centre 9am - 6pm. Wednesday 25th June at Cockwood Village Hall, evening only. Monday 30th June at Holcombe Villahe Hall, 9am - 5pm. Tuesday 1st July at St Mary's Church Hall Dawlish Warren, 9am -6pm. There will be a questionnaire for people to complete. Hard copy to be handed into the Manor House or it can be completed on-line. Make sure Councillors know your views so the right decisions can be made for Dawlish.
As someone said on another thread if the police are to object to music events on the lawn then surely a bandstand is a waste of money, so lets see what the outcome is ?
It's a fair question, but the police are not objecting to music events. This is a very specific situation involving Party in the Park. As Andysport says, we need to see what the outcome is. There is a detailed discussion that needs to be had, and I would hope that "Draconian measures" never become the norm.
i feel gutted for the Legion. As a town council we have worked with them, practical as well as financial support for Party in the Park. We know just how hard they work to put this event on. To have their efforts undermined because a small number of people abuse their hospitality is just wrong.
The funding scheme that is being applied to is running its last ever round. This opportunity will never come again. What's more, it is saying that it will give special consideration to Storm Towns. We could throw this scheme in the bin and wait until the latest difficulty has been resolved, but to my mind that is a mistake and allowing a few drunks to steal our future.
The problem with underage drinking starts with those who have alcohol for sale and those who obtain it for the under 18's is it not time that the authorities tackled the problem at its source.
I don't think anyone is saying we should not be bidding for the funding or replacing the bandstand but what we do need to do is ensure the replacement bandstand and other changes to the lawn do not destroy the character of Dawlish. It has been stated that the whole idea of the Cultural Arts Pavillion is to attract more large events to the town, is this really what the people of Dawlish want? You need to let Councillors know by attending the consultation event and completing the survey.
I agree with leatash, the problem with under age drinking needs to be tackled at source. The RBL work incredibly hard to put on an event enjoyed by the vast majority and have been hugely successful only to have it spoilt by a minority. Sadly, the destructive minority seem to be growing, this year the police claim there were 200 to 300 young people engaged in running fights.
I'd like to think that an improved facility on the Lawn has many more uses than just a few large events per year.
For example, just yesterday I went to see an amazing rehearsal by students of the Community College, Ratcliffe School and Oaklands Park School. It was stunning, exciting music and a fantastic collaboration by the students involved. The new facility would provide the flexibility for more large scale musical events like this. A traditional Victorian bandstand would be too cramped.
it would also provide the facility for more open air theatre. Gone are the days when companies like Kneehigh will turn up in a couple of transit vans and "Put on a show". Audience expectations are greater these days. Theatre companies have upped their game and so expect venues to provide the facilities they need to provide that level of quality.
There are also exciting suggestions for the interior of the building. A Victorian bandstand stands empty when not in use. Suggestions for the new building include greater promotion of our waterfowl attractions. For example, video commentaries from our wildlife team on how they care for the Black Swans. This would build on the curiosity we see when there are baby ducklings in the aviary, and really appeal to family groups.
I really hope that news of the death of Party in the Park is premature. I don't understand policing that punishes the victim rather than the perpetrator, surely there must be a better way?
Would it not be prudent for all involved in public consultation regarding the development of the lawn to provide written proof by way of land deeds or other documentation as to who actually owns the land.
All we hear is that the three levels of local government are doing this that and the other, when in reality its likely that none of them own the land.
The area now known as the lawn was if history is correct given to the people of Dawlish in return for their tax contributions. It was also at that time stated that the land should only be used for the public entertainment of the people of Dawlish and visitors to the town.
Therefore before anything else is built changed or decisions made, proof of ownership must come first.
Sadly, the people of Dawlish have only been offered either a Victorian style bandstand of the giant woodlouse. There is probably something between the two that would meet the needs of the town and be aesthetically acceptable to the vast majority. Having said that, people may turn out in their droves to support the building of the new structure, the playpark, the basketball court, the outdoor fitness area (I only noticed that bit on the plans at a meeting last night!) and the removal the of the lights above the brook.
Lynne, the on-line version is being run through survey monkey. I am assuming the task group, made up of five Councillors and led by Councillor Vickery, will be advertising this fact and how to access it for when the consultation starts.
Mrs C , see my latest post under party in the park.
Just to be absolutely clear, the Brook Lights are not being removed. The suggestion is that they are replaced by modern LED versions that are more resilient to the rise and fall of the water levels, and will look more attractive in daylight than the Heath Robinson version of straggling lines that is currently there. They will also be multi coloured, not monochrome as claimed in the newspaper
"It has been stated that the whole idea of the Cultural Arts Pavillion is to attract more large events to the town". Well, I don't know where, but certainly not the claim of the proposers.
One of the key points of the proposal is to encourage a range of events, performances, recitals, of varying scale so that the stage area is able to offer a greater range of entertainment than one large party in the park event. That's why the stage area has a folding screen to allow the stage to be used for perfomance to the Lawn, or enclosed for a smaller audience internally, or in the evenings or foul winter days.
The foyer has a range of uses that may best be described as heritage and arts promotion, to encourage people to understand more of what Dawlish can offer to the visitor. It can be combined with the stage area for other internal events like local crafts fairs. Posiibilities are not confined to arts alone.
I have read so many rumours and share June Collis' frustration (Gazette letters page this week).
Oh, and the LED lighting idea can be programmed just like that for illuminating the frontage of the Shaftesbury where colours flow through the spectrum. Surely more interesting than the present beastly danglers in fixed colour patterns?
We, town councillors promoting this project, will be on hand to take questions and discuss your ideas from next Wednesday in the locations outlined by Margaret Swift, above.
The online questionnaire will become live from Wednesday. There's no point in doing it before then with only incomplete material in the public domain.
@fred basett Since Local Government re-organisation in 1974 the Lawn was transferred to the ownership of Teignbridge District Council. The Council has provided a draft Heads of Lease proposal that will need to be negotiated fully to enable the Town Council to carry out the development if the funding comes our way.
I think the letter in the Gazette this week aptly sums up the plans for the lights over the brook. OK, they will be coloured but the stunning beauty of the lights at night as we currently see them will be no more. In a meeting last night led by Councillor Vickery, he stated that the current lights look ugly during the day, this is an entirely personal point of view. The author of the letter in the Gazette suggests that all Councilors go down to the bridge at Tuck's Plot after dark and look up the brook at the delightful display of twinkling lights reflected on the water. I do this regularly as it is a scene I never tire of and a scene I hold dear in my memory for the past 52 years. Teignbridge had planned to replace the lights with LED bulbs, which are greener, last longer and are brighter and would have improved the already stunning scene. We can only hope the replacement lighting is equally effective!
As as an aside, for those of you who have asked me about the trees being removed, I asked this question last night and was reassured by Councillor Vickery that the trees on the lawn will remain, there are no plans to remove them.
As a point of accuracy, all town Councillors are available to be on hand for the consultation period, that includes those who are promoting the proposal and those of us who remain neutral and would prefer the people of Dawlish to decide what is built (or not built) on the lawn. Re the attraction of more events - please see Michael Clayson's post under the NatWest thread on the 30th May at 17:00hrs.
Frankly, it seems to me that Dawlish police need to get a grip.
On another thread (that one that read like a toilet wall) about holligan self appointed vigilanties and misogynists, the impression was given in recent comments that it was all a thing of the distant past.
Now I am reading that fun family events are getting cancelled due to a failure to ensure law and order.
So which is it Dawlish, chat about how to 'rearrange the deck chairs' that is important or guaranteeing a safe enough town for every day events not to be cancelled due to shortcomings in policing?
Obviously both are important, but if you want tourists and a thriving town I would suggest the latter should be your top priority.
As you were kind enough to point out when ownership of the lawn was transfered ie 1974, perhaps you could now complete this information with who sold it to TDC how much did the people of Dawlish get for it, and what was that money spent on.
The other point of clarification brought to light by your post is that it sounds like DTC will need to lease the land back from TDC to be able to build the new proposed centre of arts. Dont you think it may have been a good idea to secure such lease and the required amount of funding to build before wasting tax payers money on archetics, agents and draft artists in addition to submitting plans.
It seems to me that we have here a repeat of councillor Prowse's scheme from years back in a different orientation and that this scheme is going to end up the same way. Just a waste of public money. Why is it every time the town council get involved with any sort of development it never seems to happen and ends up costing the town thousands. Remember the sally army building fiasco. Total incompetence just like the previous LIbdem/con lot.
Like the idea of the LED lighting but once again in order to install a reliable, long lasting and cost effective system you will need to employ the best specialist companies in this field to obtain value for money for the town. It would also be a good idea to consult with network rail and extent the illumination scheme to the viaduct, something which I suggested some time ago.
My understanding is that the Local Government Act 1974 created the new 'three-tier' system of local government and the land transfers between authorities were without cost. i.e. the land was transferred free of charge by Act of Parliament. I remember that it took a couple of years for Town Clerks and Valuers to find the original deeds, if they had them, to complete the legal process of transfer. So, no money came to Dawlish because the Urban District Council was no more and you now have a parish council equivalent in the town council.
Yes, the land will be leased to the Town Council if the project proceeds. However, all rests on the Coastal Communities Fund application. One stated requirement for the submission of a bid included a valid Planning Application. The Town Council has no tame architects among its staff and so a scheme had to be designed at very short notice to be able to show the Planning Authority the form of the proposed building. This is not a simple home extension that you might draw on the back of an envelope in your bath, and so architects and surveyors' inputs came first. If our bid is successful we will have the funding. It would be nice to go about it the other way, but you have to abide by the rules of those inviting applications for money. This Town Council felt that the national prominence of Dawlish in the news this year (for all sorts of unfortunate reasons) placed us in a position where we could not let the chance of a favourable consideration slip by.
This time, even if we are not given funding from CCF, we will have a carefully prepared scheme and God willing and public support behind it, a planning approval. That will put us in a far stronger position to seek other funding than ever before.
I can assure you that the basis of this proposal is rooted deeply in public meetings and consultations that have taken place since 2004 which led to Yellow Book, Amberline Coast, and other studies. I won't answer for councils that pre-date our election in 2011, and that includes those who bought 34 Park Road.
The basis might be based on consultations 10 years ago and isn't that the very point? They are hopelessly out of date! And isn't it a fact that the notion of an arts pavillion has twice been deemed as a flawed concept and thrown out at the Yellow Book stage and at a later stage so why suddenly is it a viable proposition now? The fact remains that the planning application put to Teignbridge Council was not signed off by the whole Council, only by five members at the time of submission. There was time to put the final planning application before the whole Council but that did not happen and one has to ask the question why? For the record, I will state again that it was right we bid for the funding but there should have been more consultation on the proposals for the lawn before submitting a planning application to Teignbridge.
Have I missed a point, if the approval is given to build and the funds are granted, then we the tax payers of dawlish are going to have to fund payments to Teignbridge District Council for the lease of the land and also for council tax payments on the building. Also has the Enviroment Agency given approval for a building to be placed on the lawn as I understand it they objected to the building of a car park on the lawn when the Strand was redesigned.
No miss-understanding your spot on. The whole thing is just another load of pie in the sky and is costing us thousands, just like the Strand project did. The council have yet to mention how much extra on top of the 1.75 million grant and Sainsbury's money they had to chip in to get that job finished.
"those of us who remain neutral". I don't see anything remotely neutral in your postings as a Town Councillor when you have challenged everything about the current proposals and got your airing before the scheme is put on public display. You were the only one of sixteen councillors who may not have supported the resolution to prepare a bid for Coastal Communities funding. I saw all other hands go up in the council chamber to support the effort to get central funding as a last (desperate) attempt to save this town from sinking further off the tourism horizon.
You refer to your delight at 52 years of the present lighting over the Brook, and you are likely to have to look at the same lighting for another 52 years unless something positive comes out of this exercise.
The planning application had to be submitted by 30th April, as you well know, and the submitted scheme was put before the full Town Council on the next working meeting on 14th May and the Council could have decided to withdraw at that point. Instead there was overwhelming support (except perhaps for yourself) for the submission bid.
I will close down now until the public exhibitions start on Wednesday at Cockwood and Thursday to Saturday at the Strand Centre, when I look forward to correcting a number of misunderstandings that others appear to hold about this scheme. Before others complain about the delay in getting this on show I should point out that the delay rests with yourself in insisting that the arrangements could not be left to the client group of five councillors but must be agreed by the whole council.
The questionnaire/opinion sheet will be available at each exhibition venue and will be accessible from the Town Council website when the first exhibition opens on Wednesday. It will be the same questionnaire as was composed under your scrutiny.
For the record Councillor Vickery, I DID vote for the funding in April and I DID vote for the scheme on May 14th. I voted for the scheme on May 14th because Councillors were reassured that if the people of Dawlish voted not to have a large arts pavillion built on their lawn then the scheme would be modified. My views expressed during that meeting were fully reported in the Dawlish Gazette the following week. My main concern throughout this process has been to ensure a full and proper consultation process takes place so the people of Dawlish are able to have their say about how their town is developed. I believe I have achieved my aim.
You've achieved your aim Margaret (or should that be "Councillor Swift"????)? You're suggesting that without you there wouldn't have been this public consultation. As you know, that's not true is it?
So just to clarify the land gifted to the people of Dawlish was taken from them and given for free to Teignbridge district council by the Local Government Act 1974. Now the same district council want to rent it back to us. This means we lose out twice.
I think that before this fiasco goes out to public exhibition which in itself will incurr even more costs, you and the others involved need to sit down and produce a document for showing at these exhibitions clearly stating the breakdown of what this project is about to cost the local tax payers. Not forgetting land rental, council tax, staffing costs, operation and maintainance costs, licencing, insurance, etc. Along side this a copy of Teignbridge's right to the land, and a future business plan showing how this building is going to be built using the grant money available and future self financing by means of charges for using the facility or how any other way income is going to be raised by it.
I fear that what may happen here is that in five years time DTC will not be able to afford to run the place and it will as with the land fall into the hands of TDC meaning we will lose out yet again.
If you would like to PM me I have a solution which may or may not be of intrest
There would have been consultation but it would have been rushed through before people fully realised what was happening and had time to really appreciate the full impact of the proposals.
PS Mrs C, everyone knows who I am therefore I don't need to use the title of Councillor, just as Michael Clayson and Bob Vickery don't need to use their title of Councillor. However, at least I do use my full name and do not hide behind anonymity.
I know it was a late night, but way to miss the point Maggie. Look back to your post on 20 June at 13:13, and think about why you typed "Councillor Vickery" rather than "Bob".
Why do you have a problem with anonymity though? Are you saying that the 99% of users of this website who are anonymous are "hiding"?
And how does changing my username to, for example, Judith Chalmers, make me any less anonymous? (Thanks Onport1968 for showing me that usernames can be changed on here - wish you were here).