General Discussion
Anyone know anymore about this? I'm just curious to know what has since been built on this once proposed route. This is from Wikipaedia. (my emphasis in bold)
"The Dawlish Avoiding Line was first proposed in 1933, to avoid the high cost of maintenance associated with the SDR sea wall, and keep the Exeter to Plymouth Line working.[1]
But in 1935, Chancellor of the Exchequer Neville Chamberlainproposed establishing an independent special purpose vehicle finance company, backed by a government loan guarantee limited to £26.5million. This could then be drawn down by any of the big four railway companies, with the GWR allocated “eleven fifty-third parts” to support the projects it had submitted for inclusion in the agreement, all of which had to be completed by 1 January 1941. Under the 1935 Finance Act, the GWR initially submitted just one proposal in the Treasury agreement (First Schedule, Part 1, Clause 2) which read: “Construction of a new deviation line from Dawlish Warren to Newton Abbot”.[2]
The proposed 16 miles (26 km) 1933 scheme within the two draft 1936 bills, diverted from the existing line south of Exminster. The scheme then went south through Kenton to Dawlish about 1 kilometre (0.62 mi) inland, then heading southwest underHolcombe Down avoiding Teignmouth, before rejoining the existing line to the east of Bishopsteignton. It was costed at £3M, and included three short tunnels and one long tunnel of 2,624 yd (2.399 km).[1] Parliament passed the Great Western Railway (Additional Powers) Act 1936, in which DAL is cited as “Railway No 1” amongst several listed.[2]
However, the GWR to enable other schemes developed a shorter route. This scheme of 8 mi (12.874752 km) deviated from the railway bridge over the Hackney Canal near Newton Abbot, and re-joined the main line at a point 62 chains (1.2 km) north of Dawlish Warren towards Cockwood, alongside the River Exe. However, in 1937 the GWR returned to a scheme closer to the original, called "Railway No 2”. Adding a further 7 mi (11.265 km), it commenced at the same point south of Dawlish on the initial deviation route (authorised earlier by the 1936 Act), terminating close toExminster at a junction 5 chains (0.10 km) south of a bridge carrying Milbury Lane over the line.[1][3][2]
Construction[edit]
The GWR started construction in Spring 1939, with surveyors poles in place along the proposed route by the summer. However, after the outbreak of World War 2, all work stopped.[1][2]
Work was never restarted, and after the post-War nationalisationBritish Rail sold the purchased land. The powers of the associated Act of Parliament lapsed in 1999.[1]
Yes heard this was stopped because of the war. They should start on this and there would then be a reliable direct route to Torbay and Plymouth.
Two routes then? One on the present line, via Dawlish Town railway station, and the other on a Dawlish avoiding line with a new Dawlish Parkway railway station? After all, a Dawlish Parkway would be ideal for all those commuters who will be living in all that new build housing scheduled to be built out Shutterton/Gatehouse way. 
Remember the present line also acts as a sea/estuary flood defence. So.........it seems to me that it has to continue being in existence otherwise an awful lot of people in Starcross, Dawlish Warren and even Dawlish town are going to get very wet feet (and that could be putting it mildly).
Yes has to be two and yes Dawlish Parkway. ..if you remember David Cameron said the west country needs a faster service. Maybe they will reopen Tavistock - Okehampton which will be good for that area, but that cant possibly be a 'fast route' to Plymouth 1hr 20 from Exeter at least...also if its on its own if Dawlish line has problems again, way too far round via Plymouth for anyone wanting to go to Torquay..
All of which then begs the question why has Network Rail expressed a preference for a north of Dartmoor line (Okehampton/Tavistock/Plymouth) rather than a second line, situated just a bit inland from Exminster/Kenton running to Teignmouth(ish) via Dawlish Parkway and which would thus avoid the Dawlish seawall?
Think Network Rail have got in their head its already been agreed to reopen up to Tavistock and DCC back it....so whilst they are there will build to Okehamption. Goodness knows how long it takes them to do it! You knoiw I cant see Network Rail keep on paying out for damage at Dawlish if it happens agaiin ..maybe if the town want a railway.. somehow it has to be paid for ..could Dawlish Town Council or anyone buy the track somehow if people want it... if they give up?
The other thing about that north Dartmoor line is that the amount of population it will serve is nowhere near the numbers that the Dawlish/Newton Abbot/Torbay/Totnes/Ivybridge line(s) serve.
I took a look at the 2011 population census figures this afternoon. Now, as they are 2011 they are not bang up to date (Exminster may have a bigger population now because of the new housing, ditto Dawlish) but have a look at this for the difference in population numbers south of Dartmoor and those north.
North of Dartmoor
Okehampton - pop. 7,647
Tavistock - pop. 12,280
Total = 19,927. Let's say 20,000
Compared to the following (and I have included settlements that whilst not necessarily having railway stations themselves nontheless are near enough to one to be able to use it eg Kenton uses Starcross ). I have also included Exminster as if the Dawlish avoiding line were to be built it would make sense for Exminster to have a station.
South of Dartmoor - the present line/the Dawlish avoiding line/the Torbay line
Exminster - pop. 3,368
Kenton - pop. 1,005
Starcross - pop. 1,737
Dawlish - pop. 11,312
Teignmouth - pop. 15,129
Newton Abbot - pop. 25,556
Kingsteignton - pop. 10,451
Abbotskerswell - pop. 1,267
Kingskerswell - pop. 4,703
Torbay - pop. 131,000
Totnes - pop. 8,076
Ivybridge - pop. 11,851
Total = 225,455. Let's say 225,500
And that is why a south of dartmoor line is needed!
You need to search all the village catchment populations (like you have Kingskerswell) to compare on the Darmoor line...from .Newton St Cyres, inc Crediton, Yeoford etc all the way to include Plymouth...if you do it could well exceed 225,000. I dont know. Be interesting. IF it does exceed 225,000 I think it maybe ...then thats why Network Rail chooses that way.
We need to keep the coastal route, all the money that will be spent on that alternative, could do a splendid job on reinforcing our line. Its been mend and do for years now this is the ideal time to rebuild it, and it may be good then for the next 100 years. If they adopt that we will be forgotten to be sure, might as well say goodbye to the coastal towns
i respect that everybody has there own opinion but why is it that every time when the sea wall line is not working, people immediately start saying "lets have a inland route". the sea wall route has to be kept, because of tourism which is a massive boost to the south west england. torbay is still getting trains , plymouth is still getting trains even though they have delays , but that has not stopped a labour party counsellor and 2 mps for plymouth getting in on the act. and they want a inland route missing dawlish and guess what , joining the main line at guess where, yep , plymouth. just one last thing this inland route , nobody has mentioned cost. @roberta. very good post, well said.
It has cost £10m to maintain the wall over the last 10 years that is expected to triple as climate change takes hold and sea levels rise these are NR predictions. So is it worth spending the money to future proof the sea wall because at present they are only patching it up varios figures thrown about say it could cost up to £500m to future proof the wall making it higher and wider would mean altering stations tunnels etc a massive engineering job its probably easier to build a new line.
I don't see the issue being that there should be an alternative to the Dawlish route rather that there might be an argument that there should be an additional route. The question then becomes where should that additional route be located?
The present route via Dawlish sea front needs to be kept not least, as I have pointed out before, because it also acts as a sea/estuary defence. Should that route not be continued then the sea/estuary defence still needs to be maintained OR if not, we are looking at a, what is it called?, oh yes, a managed retreat from the low lying areas of Starcross, Dawlish Warren and even parts of Dawlish.
And a route going via north of Dartmoor as Wondering has previously pointed out is not the fastest route from Plymouth to the rest of the country. The route going south of Dartmoor is the fastest. The question is, what to do about the Dawlish bit of it?
@Lynne. i understand with your argument but dawlish must be kept. so must teignmouth , dawlish, dawlish warren, starcross. just strengthen the sea wall (not patch up and make do) , and make breakwaters as the mp for newton abbot anne-marie morris has said.
@stephen15 - i think we are singing from the same hymn sheet with regard to the dawlish sea front line.
@wondering - no doubt i could, if i had oodles of amounts of time and inclination, go through the 2011 census village by village and get the population figures. however, i've cheated a bit and looked at the 2011 population figures by local authority. this is what i have found (and my point is not so much that a north of dartmoor line isn't feasible rather that the south of dartmoor line(s) must be retained.)
North of Dartmoor line population
Mid Devon - pop. 77,800
West Devon - pop. 53,500
Total = 131,300
South of Dartmoor line(s) population
Teignbridge - pop. 124,200
Torbay - pop 131,000
South Hams - pop 83,600
Total = 338,800
Ok..think including the population in South Hams. Kingsbridge and Salcombe is pushing it a bit.
Plymouth is around 250,000 so you can understand to be fair why people there are desperate for a train going ..... any route!
I totally understand why Plymouth is pushing for a faster and reliable train route. Poor old Plymouth - not only does it not have a motorway link, but it no longer has an airport and at the moment it is cut off by rail from the rest of the country. 15th largest city in the country I think I've read somewhere and don't forget that it has a naval base and is a cross channel port. You bet I'd be creating if I lived in Plymouth!.
You not like my including the whole of the South Hams in my figures? Okay then, here is an amended version where I have deleted the South Hams population and replaced it with that of Totnes and Ivybridge.
Teigbridge pop. 124,200
Torbay pop. 131, 000
Totnes pop. 8,076
Ivybridge pop. 11,851
Total = 275,127
Thats better .. I was thinking if you include Salcombe you must think of population in North Cornwall, Bude,etc ., for the Dartmoor line.
Found the following on Anne Marie Morris's website:
".......The line is a vital artery for the South West of England and crucial for coastal communities in Dawlish and Teignmouth. Anne Marie is clear that while an additional route would be welcome, it should not be an alternative route. Every year Dawlish station has a footfall of more than 480,000 people, more even than Torquay. Over the last decade this has gone up by 81%, putting Dawlish at significantly above the national average for passenger growth numbers. When combined with Teignmouth more than 1.1m people pass through the stations every year. Additionally, 14% of all jobs in the Teignbridge area are supported by tourism, much of which comes via the coastal railway line, making it invaluable for the local economy.
It is because of this that Anne Marie has been working hard to make the line more resilient, so it can stand up to any future storms. She has been lobbying for funding for a breakwater to be installed in addition to a sea wall to stop the waves causing such damage again."
and then found this on Adrian Sanders' (MP for Torbay) fb page:
Yesterday there had apparently been a telephone conference for all Devon and Cornwall MPs with the rail minister, Network Rail, and FGW re update on rail links.
Apparently only 5 of the MPs invited to take part did so - Lib Dem MP for Torbay, Lib Dem MP for St. Ives, Labour MP for Plymouth Moorview, Tory MP for South-East Cornwall, Tory MP for East Devon.
Dawlish Avoiding Line (DAL)
1. If the hundreds of millions of pounds lost to businesses over the next two months is to be believed then between now and the next election (or as and when the sea wall fails again) is a glorious opportunity for commitment to beefing up the rail links properly.
2. Dawlish is on the map as a household name because of its attractive albeit tenuous railway line. It has to be kept and beefed up for all the reasons given in previous comments. Would suggest it's worth looking at the major defences installed at Folkestone in the noughties as a grand example of how to solve the sea intrusions for maybe 100years. Not necessarily a pretty solution in everyone's mind but you do gain plenty of extra beach and 'push' the sea well back from the wall.
3. There are many good reasons to build a fast, 100mph or preferably 125mph non-stop DAL, from Exminster to NA.
a) The seawall line is too vulnerable not just to collapse but also to 'spray delays'.
b) Save 5 to 7mins on ALL express trains west of Exeter - i.e. something all the major towns westwards would benefit from.
c) Paves the way for future 25kV electrification which is of course the real game changer for the region - ok not on the cards, as it should be, but it would strengthen the case for it by removing the seawater and electricity issue.
d) All existing services are fairly hamstrung by a lack of capacity between Exeter and NA due to the disparity in route times between stoppers and expresses. They would both benefit from having separate dedicated lines. i.e. just as with HS2 (sorry to mention it) there is an existing and future capacity issue at stake along this stretch of line that needs addressing.
e) Although a non-stop DAL would generally be preferable, one may have to pragmatically conceed to a 'Dawlish Parkway' to soften up planning benefits, provide direct intercity options for the Dawlish area, and to provide a station stop to service the area in lieu of the seawall line working on any given day or 'couple of months'!
4. The difficult quest is finding the land take to build such a fast line - not familiar enough with the answer to this but plenty of tunnels would clearly help, as well as minimising gradients and keeping it straight - which is what trains like best.
5. Lastly, ye olde Tavy-Okehampton line. Obviously this in no way would ever provide a premier substitute route to the South Devon line. But it has many merits to being done, and done first, as well as planning for a proper longer term solution of a DAL.
a) It is relatively cheap to do.
b) Could if the will is there, be done much more quickly than a DAL.
c) Provide an emergency route (even if only served by non-intercity stock).
d) Opens up a whole new rail catchment area.
e) A far better matrix of journey opportunities (e.g. Lydford Gorge, also competitive times for Oke to Plymouth and Tavy to Exeter) than oddly having two branch lines, one at each end.
f) Provide an engineering avoiding route through to Plymouth both now and for as and when electification is being installed on the South Devon route.
g) From the plans I have seen for the proposed reopening of Bere Alston to Tavy it gives the impression that once complete, the line would be 'sealed at the buffers' at Tavy by general development - so potentially sealing the fate once and for all of the 'missing link' ever being justifiable to reinstate.
p.s. Ref. comments to why people take SWT from Exeter to Waterloo - it's also a lot cheaper than via Taunton - but you have to go to the SWT website to get the really low fares. These are not shown on any other main rail sites - I wonder why?
Dear Clive,
You obviously know your stuff.
Fancy putting all that lot in a letter to our local paper?
If you ask them nicely they won't publish your name and address (should you wish to keep your identity a secret)
Yours sincerely,
Lynne
@Clive. You seem to forget clive that all network rail have to do is strengthen the sea wall and make it thicker and tougher. plus build breakwaters. you can do this like the sea wall at Teignmouth and Jersey( curved at top) , and you should have a sea wall "fit for purpose". not go to all that expense of building a Dawlish avoiding line. remember Dawlish is a tourist town like Teignmouth and Dawlish Warren. if you want to "kill off" these towns then build the Dawlish avoiding line. but certainly the only city/ town to benefit will be Plymouth. and at the moment they are getting their rail services/bus services/ roads/motorway.
Why do people go from Exeter to London Waterloo? Well its cheaper. I must admit I dont know how much. But ever tried Trainline website Clive?
I would agree with this as far as it goes Stephen, all power to NR to do this or similar to make the sea wall as resilient as possible as the first and most important task. Not least because the good folk of Dawlish also deserve to have their seafront businesses and homes protected as well. A win-win situation courtesy of NR (general taxpayer).
Observing the way gov't spending often seems to go, small incremental projects (i.e. 5 to 10 years) win out with larger bolder ones only happening by being costed out over a much longer timescale (i.e. 20 or 30 years). NR are no doubt aware of this and it may therefore be pragmatically in their minds that the Oke-Tavy route is a winable very useful solution and much better than nothing bold being done at all. Money no object, as modern railway people, my best guess would be that if having to chose they would much prefer all the every day operational advantages I detailed above resulting from a DAL, not withstanding that it is unlikely to happen anytime soon. With all this in mind, and being professionals, their current stated position is to simply push for cost-benefit optioneering at the moment, but with a view to everything to play for.
For a local example of the way things seem to work out in practice, consider the Exeter to Sailsbury line, which has a fairly clear case for being doubled throughout particularly as it obviously serves as a vital back-up/diversionary route to Exeter and could do so more readily if doubled. However, in reality what we actually get is very limited doubling (i.e. the very welcome 3mile Axminster 'flying passing loop'). i.e. the traditional approach is one of working only very incrementally.
Going back to the fair question of whether a DAL would be adverse to the D&T towns, there will of course be many pros and cons. My logic is that the new line should be high speed and dedicated to expresses. Some of the pros are as per listed in my point 3 above. I would also particularly emphasise that by freeing up the seawall line from the non-stop XCountry and HST expresses there would then be many more train paths available for:
a) local stopping services to serve the towns regularly on a 'clock face timetable'
b) for HSTs to more reliably run the seawall to provide the occasional stopping services they already do
c) improved availability for 'steam specials' that are so loving of this prime stretch of scenery
Other benefits include:
a) reduced noise and vibration polution from removing the expresses along this built up area
b) not just Plymouth, but NA, Totnes, Torbay, and Cornwall would all benefit from the time savings and just as importantly reliability of service. (How oft an express runs slow behind stoppers or stoppers get held waiting for late expresses is the subject of many a blog to be found.)
c) Similarly Torbay is virtually currently devoid of any fast services to London, at least in part down to line capacity, and similarly gets critised for lack of decent connecting services at NA.
d) a 'Dawlish Parkway' on the DAL would virtually guarantee a rail connection close to Dawlish, whatever the weather - good for tourists and businesses
To be fair the cons would include:
a) Express passenger tourists not enjoying the sea views and thinking about D&T as places to visit in the future.
b) Land to the west of the towns being 'blighted' by the new line.
c) Any other thoughts ?
p.s. True, 'The Train Line' site is also good for £20 fares from Exeter Central -London Waterloo
SWT (Stagecoach) run the Salisbury - Waterloo line on an hourly basis and you know that every hour there is a train from Exeter at 25 pass each hour. No need to search the timetables. There is a 35 minute turn around at Exeter so its reliable, every time I have been on it to get to south coast its been on time. A few years ago it was a two hourly service.
I've never used Trainline as I believe there is a booking fee, is better to go to the ticket office and got a better deal there, has been better for me than fares on National Rail website..
Thanks Lynne, worth a thought if of interest to a wider audience. I should confess 
that living in West Cornwall I may have a slight bias of opinion about speed and reliability though.
I ain't quite 'The Man in Seat Sixty-One' but one cannot help but note that countries such as Portugal universally have modern 25kV lines (ok the country sort of went bust) even where services are only 3 each way per day to some outpost town. For example, the wonderfully scenic Lisbon-Covilha line (which, dare I say, comes a very close second to Dawlish and Scotland for views). Very purposefully their electric trains accelerate and zip along inspite of the extremely tricky terrain, station stops and passing loops.
Meanwhile with throttle wide open back at the 'South Devon Banks' ... not a catenary in sight for nearly 200miles ... and often a 3minute stand at each station stop while the HST doors get closed, checked, closed again, whistle blown, doors centrally locked and finally sets off maybe a full half a minute later after all that 
Yes Clive I do soooooooo think what you have to say would be of wider interest. I should think the whole of Dawlish would be interested for starters. Your thoughts on rail issues particularly pertinent to Dawlish would prove a very interesting and thought provoking read I feel sure and would be read by more people than you reach via this website. (although please don't stop posting on here, will you)
Our local paper is the Dawlish Gazette. Letters for its Viewpoint letters' page can be submitted online via this email address: dawlishedit@tindlenews.co.uk
If you are in West Cornwall is your MP Andrew George?
@Lynne. What has Andrew George Liberal MP for St. Ives got to do with Dawlish? Lynne, there is a meeting on tuesday and does the Dawlish Gazette come out the next day?
Very interesting posts Clive. Like Lynne I encourage you to bring your views to a wider audience. At the very least it might prompt some informed debate from people with insight into the workings of the railways. Thanks.
@Stephen 15 - I was just curious to know who Clive's MP is. And your problem with that is? I should think all MPs with constituencies in the south west will have an interest in Dawlish and how what happens here will impact on their constituents ability to travel by rail.
The Dawlish Gazette comes out on Wednesday.
What meeting? Do you mean the Transport Select Committee meeting with the Sec. of State for Transport?
@Lynne, i am in the 'sarah newton constituency'. quickly scanning through her website there is no obvious hint of support for any form of avoiding line, simply a comment that the gov't has "... committed £31 million to fund 10 rail-resilience projects in the south-west to improve the local rail network’s resilience against flooding." 'a drop in the ocean' you may say (sorry about the pun), compared with the cost caused to businesses and certainly doesn't even start to pay for any form of avoiding line.
Sadly, it would not surprise me in the least if once the seawall line is fixed, NR has presented its unpalletable DAL costs and the election has been and gone, then all talk of an avoiding line will become tomorrow's 'chip paper'. Even the £18.5m quoted to restore a modest 5miles to Tavy has been wrangled over for more years than I care to think about, so if past performance is anything to go by ....
No, sadly my best prediction is that if there is no firm commitment before the next election, then it will take more than just an 80m or so length of seawall to be washed away before an avoiding line solution is committed to. Am probably getting a bit cynical with the years but this is the pattern one has got used to, particularly in a climate of cost cutting. Being more optimistic, an election tipping ground swell of opinion in the SW may, may, just make the difference to prove that hypothesis wrong.
There is nothing like a General Election for concentrating minds. Especially political minds. The next GE is less than 16 months away. This Dawlish rail issue will still be an ongoing matter in the south west during that time.
Although a week is a long time in politics (therefore 16 months is an eternity) at the moment it looks like there will be no overall majority again. Therefore there is everything to play for between the Conservatives and the Lib Dems (and Labour in a few of the seats) in the south west.
So let's all get playing. We have everything to gain and nothing to lose.
@Clive, @wondering, @stephen15 and others wanting to read some more whys and wherefores regarding the south west's rail network problem(s) - suggest have a read of the comments at the bottom of this link http://www.libdemvoice.org/adrian-sanders-writes-from-the-cutoff-far-south-west-38161.html
and.....I've just come across this: "Great Western Railway in 1939, having purchased the required land, were about to commence a new inland route with inland stations for Dawlish and Teignmouth. Unfortunately other events happened later that year...and there has never been the money to continue and the proposed route has been built over. All plans and information can be seen in 'Exeter -- Newton Abbot; A Railway History' by Peter Kay and published by Platform 5 1991. It is in the Devon County Libraries"
Thank you Lynne.. meanwhile up there in North Devon >>>Libs have a petition...
http://www.campaigns.libdems.org.uk/NorthCornwallRailways
all this reminds me of the old Britsh Rail advert ..'This is the age of the train' ...and the one ...'We're getting there!' lol.
@stephen15 - re parliamentary meetings on tues 25th feb. it seems that as well as a meeting of the transport select committee there is another meeting scheduled to take place. see below.
Extract from an article in the Exeter Express and Echo by Neil Parish, MP for Tiverton and Honiton
“I am pleased to be hosting a rather timely event on February 25 in Parliament for Westcountry MPs and local authorities to highlight the impact of the recent extreme weather on the South West Peninsula and particularly the resilience of the transport network. We will also be launching The South West Extreme Weather Resilience Report. The report, which was commissioned by local authorities in the West Country, estimates cost of the damage to the Peninsula economy, transport and public from the storms in 2012 and 2013 is in the region of £140m. When the latest flood damage and disruption is taken into account, the cost will certainly be many times more.
The Transport Secretary, Patrick McLaughlin, will be attending the event and we hope to convince him that securing the investment needed for Network Rail’s flood resilience programme for the South West is an urgent priority.”
for full article see http://www.exeterexpressandecho.co.uk/letter-Neil-Parish-MP-Storms-vulnerable/story-20659289-detail/story.html
Thanks for that. Thats the meeting i was on about. It could be televised. there is a programme on bbc parliament, channel 504 on SKY. Its on friday at 7.15pm to 11pm , and saturday 6pm to 8.45pm. It Is about select committees. they may record the select committe meeting.
@Stephen - I've also read somewhere about a Parliamentary Rail Resilience Task Group meeting on the 25th as well. Is that part of the Transport Select Committee or something else again?
@Lynne. I think this a group who are going to write to mp`s about a more resillant south west railway. it seems to have been set up by tudor evans labour party leader of the plymouth city council.
Lynne: This whole discussion has deviated away from your original question which was 'what has happened to the land that the GWR purchased in the 1930s?'.
In a nutshell, much of the proposed alignment is still farmland, some of it has been built on... and some of it was built on long before the GWR even considered building a Dawlish avoiding line. If any of the Dawlish avoiding lines were to be built now on their originally proposed alignments, it would cause major disruption in Dawlish in the area of Meadow Rise, Meadow Park and Upper Longlands off Badlake Hill. A sensible route could still be constructed 1/2 mile west of the 1930s routes.
The shorter route, starting just north of Dawlish Warren station (Eastdon) would have cut across the top end of Dawlish, partly in a tunnel and with bridges over (or under?) Badlake Hill and Weech Rd. near their junction. There would then have been a massive embankment across the western end of The Newhay and loss of about half of this park area. After that the line then have skirted the mill pond (for the mills in Church St. and Brunswick Place) which is still there at the top end of The Newhay but which is now more of a marsh than a pond. The route beside the mill pond and the adjacent Luscombe Estate lake would have been on a viaduct. After that it would have joined the alignment of the other two proposed routes from Exminster and Powderham. The route would then have followed the Aller Valley road for a bit crossing over Aller Brook roughly where the current ford is on the lane that goes up towards Holcombe. Finally, it would have disappeared into a long tunnel on the south side of the Aller Valley emerging on Exeter Road in Teignmouth somewhere up behind Teignmouth College near the junction of Exeter Rd. and New Rd. The last bit to Hackney was a gradual descent paralleling the current line but at a higher elevation till the old and new routes rejoined at Hackney.
The route from Dawlish Warren quickly became the preferred route due to lower cost but was abandoned upon the outbreak of WW2 and withdrawl of government funding for railway infrastructure improvement projects. This funding was introduced by the government as a stimulus during and after The Great Depression. The GWR used some of its share of the funding to make improvements around Taunton and some other minor projects like those at Norton Fitzwarren and Exminster. It had intended to follow on working west with the Dawlish Avoiding Line and improvements at Newton Abbot, Paignton and Goodrington. I remember improvements being done at Goodrington by Brish Railways in the 1950s. These consisted of installation of more carriage sidings and a new turntable for steam locomotives. The GWR also considered electrification of its main West of England line from Taunton (possibly) or Exeter (definitely) to Paignton (?) and Plymouth to address the steep gradients and heavy traffic on this route.
In the 1930s the GWR bought at least some properties that it would have to demolished in Dawlish. One notable example was the vicarage on Weech Rd. This was right on the alignment of the line from Exminster / Powderham. Ever frugal, the GWR made this large building into the residence for the Dawlish Stationmaster. It stayed thus into at least the 1950s and I remember the stationmaster as having one of the best houses in town! This building has now been demolished except for the white stone perimeter wall on the south side of Weech Rd.
Hope the above helps!
@MARKC - that is a wonderfully detailed and interesting insight, thanks. it also illustrates that before calling for a 'gw2' (a pun adopted from hs2, i believe, i.e. a fast dal) one needs to be 'careful what one wishes', as the saying goes. that is, there will quite likely be all the same basic issues of planning and cost as on hs2 - 'wanting a new station (e.g. a 'dawlish parkway') but not the line', noise polution, land take, houses lost, cost, more costs etc, etc.
Putting on a 'Dawlish Hat' for a moment, I would suggest in the broadest of terms that:
a) Oke-Tavy - no significant gain or loss to Dawlish c.f. the status quo (hopefully by Easter!) of simply making the seawall 'resiliant' again. Oke-Tavy will never be detrimental to South Devon services on a daily basis, on account of both speed and destinations. So this is the 'quiet life' option.
b) Fast DAL - noise transferred away from seafront, more reliable stopping services on seawall but without a 'Dawlish Parkway' on the DAL, the environmental loss to the west of Dawlish may outweigh other advantages to Dawlish itself.
... On the other hand, if one's interests were were in NA, Torbay, Plymouth, Cornwall one would selfishly probably be wanting option b) for speed and reliability.
Does the conclusion from this suggest that without the guarantee of a 'Dawlish Parkway', Dawlish itself should back Oke-Tavy?!!
... Or if one's interests were in Oke, Tavy, north of Dartmoor, I would probably want this line (as long as it's not my property being demolished).
Hence, I think firstly that the debate on solution will take place as much between SW regions as well as at Gov't level, but with Dawlish probably having more to either gain or potentially lose than most towns if not fully informed and their views take heed of. Secondly, if the SW debates too long rather than reach a reasonably swift and unified demand before the next election, then any new line will be back in the 'long grass'.
p.s. Perhaps disingenuously, I haven't mentioned the Teign Valley line because as I understand it this was built as very slow freight line with token passenger services and occasional tortuous diversions. The amount of reconstruction and cost to make it a viable speed for mainline services whether diverted or regular (even more costly), effectively makes it a DAL variant but simply taking a very wide berth of Dawlish.
@MARKC - wow! thank you for your very interesting and informative post concerning dawlish local railway history and for addressing the question i posed in my original post.
I feel sure that something that might have been of public interest pre Feb 2014 is now something that is definitely of public interest given the events of earlier this month.
So, as with Clive's posts, I would urge you to address a wider audience than that found on here and send in a letter to the Dawlish Gazette. After all, what you write about above is a highly topical subject right now.
@Clive and @Mark c. Do you want a inland route or keep the coastal route? Or have you not made up your minds yet?
OK, this is a Dawlish forum, so apologies, but ... no-one seems so far to have said much about the impact on Teignmouth. The DAL outlined by MARKC does at least give the option of a Dawlish station (on the Newhay ?) but gives nothing to our neighbours. If needed, we should join forces with them to put our point of view across.
Strange they dont run from Teignmouth - Paignton now, very odd,
Whatever they decide Teignmouth should still be safe in having a train even if it starts there towards Newton..
I've read (on Eyes of Dawlish I think) that the reason trains aren't running Dawlish Warren/Exeter and Teignmouth/NA/Paignton at the moment is that there is a signalling problem caused by the damage at Dawlish. Presumably if the signalling problem can be resolved even before the Dawlish line is running again then a DW/Exeter and T'mouth/NA service could be provided.
@stephen15 - my personal current view (and i must declare my interest lies down the line in cornwall) is this. from an overall strategic sw perspective and for robust engineering, there should be three lines (money no object which of course it will be!) but in the following order:
1. Coastal route made as permanent as possible, and that means more than just make do and mend the current collapse. Principally, because no other route is likely to be completed within, realistically, 10 years (if ever!) Also because long term until No.3 below is built the coastal route still provides the best service to the major population centres. And even when No.3 is built the coastal route would still provide an essential stopping services (to 4 stations - Starcross to Teignmouth inclusive), tourism benefits, an Exminster to NA diversion to No.3 and sea defence to the town.
2. Reconnect Oke-Tavy line. This has the fastest timeline, provides a diversionary route for the complete S.Devon route (not just a quarter of it) for when electrification is finally progressed and for routine or extraordinary engineering works. Also, thinking long term, say 20 or 40 years time, populations north of Dartmoor will have grown greater and public transport will be in even greater demand. It will be rued that it wasn't simply got on with now before re-connection becomes even harder to achieve than it is now. Personally again, I would suggest that a 'chord' north of Cowley should looked into to add real value to this line. This would then provide an emergency passenger bypass to this flood zone with also no reversing needed at Exeter either (that would save at least 15mins). Could also more routinely reduce freight movements to/from Plymouth and Cornwall from the Exeter and S.Devon pinchpoints by sending them straight around Dartmoor instead? But that may be far too ambitious!
3. Build a 100 to 125mph DAL Exminster to NA - this is the real future that should have happened 75years ago or come to that 175years ago!! And will probably take another 20+ years at best. If this is ever seriously considered by Network Rail and the Gov't, then this is where the really big questions for Dawlish and Teignmouth start to begin (as per previous comments). Unlikely to be able to stop it happening as the minority population vote, but may have a reasonable say on environmental issues, routing and getting a regional Parkway as a trade off.
@Lynne - should happen to show willing, but i wouldn't hold your breath about a local service at either end. quite apart from signalling issues, am not sure whether stock availability and/or passenger receipts would permit.
I have mentioned this before but lets just say we get a inland route what happens to the sea wall who maintains it this is not just about trains its about lives and property. Consider the damage the recent storms caused happening if the train track was not there the responce would have been slower and we would probably be looking at serious damage to property. Without the wall you would have the sea on the lawns the main road under threat we need the railway to maintain the wall because without the wall we are in serious trouble.
@leatash - this is what you wrote on the 18th feb on this thread:
"It has cost £10m to maintain the wall over the last 10 years that is expected to triple as climate change takes hold and sea levels rise these are NR predictions. So is it worth spending the money to future proof the sea wall because at present they are only patching it up varios figures thrown about say it could cost up to £500m to future proof the wall making it higher and wider would mean altering stations tunnels etc a massive engineering job its probably easier to build a new line."
Compare that with your statement two posts above this one. Might be the way I'm reading 'em, but it strikes me that they are contradictory. Or have the arguments on here caused you to change your mind?
@leatash - i appreciate the long term concern that once there is a superior (i.e. fast, reliable in railway terms) alternative, the budget to maintain the seawall could temptingly be downgraded in some way. however, populations the size of dawlish usually fair quite well in terms of hard defences (railway or no railway) being maintained/paid for. most coastlines are perfectly possible to protect, it's usually down to cost and/or how 'ugly' you are prepared to accept the solution to be. another factor can sometimes whether it is acceptable for some other stretch of coast to suffer as a knock-on effect of no longer being replenished.
A little off topic, but sort of follows the above. The following link gives some clear picture examples and reasonably clear text on issues and solutions to coastal errosion. http://www.se-coastalgroup.org.uk/our-coastline/ In particular, the third photograph (Folkestone) shows a rock armour solution (rocks from Scandinavia). You cannot see it too clearly in the photo but before the works the promenade adjoining the rock armour used to consist of an old traditional high sea wall complete with a curved splash return at the top. Nevertheless, the sea used to mercilously pound it on windy days with waves and spray dousing the prom. (ring any bells?) But no longer - the shingle beach is now built up so high that it keeps the sea harmlessly away as well as providing a more useable shoreline for summer fun.
To-morrow Network Rail are opening up the engineering works at Dawlish to the media to show them how they are getting on. By the way. Does anybody know where Jack Sprats cafe Is please?
@stephen15 - jack spratts is on the strand http://www.jackspratcafe.co.uk/aboutus.html
(seems I'm still having problems with capitals though!)
It seems there's some twittering (is that the right phrase?) about today's Transport Select Committee meeting and the rail needs of the south west by Ben Bradshaw (lab Exeter) and Adrian Sanders (Lib Dem Torbay). I can't find anything being tweeted by Anne Marie Morris.
This morning, on its breakfast news show, Radio Devon ran a feature about yesterday's Transport Select Committee meeting. Here are the notes I took.
Looking at the long term, Network Rail are now considering up to 5 inland routes. Radio Devon not sure where these routes are but one is the Okehampton/Tavistock line. NR say this will cost approx £500-700m. Other lines could be the Teign Valley line, a direct Exeter/N A line via a tunnel at Haldon, and two variations of the Dawlish Avoiding Line.
NR say an outline study of all possible options will be with the Secretary of State for Transport by June and the shortlist will possibly be published in Autumn of this year.
MPs from the south west made strong representations to members of the Committee about how disconnected the south west is from the rest of the country. They made the point that the south west isn’t Bristol. The MPs pointed out the damage to the south west economy because of the rail network being out of action. Torbay bookings are down approx 75% for this Easter period.
On Radio Devon, Tudor Evans, the Leader of Plymouth City Council, said that Plymouth would prefer a DAL route. The viaduct at Maldon on the Oke/Tavy line would need strengthening and how much will that cost? Any new line being built needs to be able to be converted to electricity in the future. He told the Committee about how the Virgin trains (when they ran to the far south west) sometimes couldn’t travel beyond Exeter because of the spray coming over the trains at Dawlish. The Chair of the Committee is a Liverpool MP. TE pointed out to her that Liverpool is only 20 miles nearer to London than Plymouth but that it takes an hour less to travel Liverpool/London than it does Plymouth/London.
Plymouth Chamber of Commerce estimating that £20m is being lost to the city per working week whilst the train service is disrupted. Need to raise the line over the Somerset levels as well as looking at what happens from Exeter to the further south west.
@Lynne - great news to hear about. i sense from it that the underlying message is, if they can only get the money for one long term solution, then a fast dal is actually the clear favourite, pleasing the max. number of people and ticking the most requirement boxes. in particular, it would crucially get the max. support from businesses, which is the factor that usually wins out with optioneering.
If you then work on the premise of a fast DAL to NA being the real solution wanted, it follows that Oke-Tavy costs will not be played down, i.e. is now £600m up from the £150m previously batted around. In fairness though, they are possibly talking about restoring to reasonable mainline standards rather than just doing it on the cheap for local trains. Still, for say 20miles, that works out at £17000 per yard. Nice work if you can get it!
https://www.facebook.com/EODawlish/photos/a.647429425282219.1073741825.107778222580678/741630509195443/?type=1&theater the 5 options
@roberta - good link thanks. from an engineering point of view, i.e. to maintain high line speed, the route is best diverted north of the starcross yacht club. i think this means the exminster route wins.
Hi everyone I'm new here. I live in Torquay and prevously worked for many years in the rail industry and related consultancies in London, the South East and Midlands. I have come up with an alternative Dawlish Avoiding Line suggestion that cuts around five miles from the Exeter to Newton Abbot route by taking a new direct route tunnelling under the Haldon hills, and connects to existing routes near Heathfield and Alphington. Although partly reusing the right of way of the old Teign Valley route at its extremities this would actually be entirely new double track construction cutting off the 'Heathfield corner' through the ball clay pits and avoiding the slow winding progression along the valley via Dunsford. Interestingly at around 14 miles this is no greater in length than the longer variants of the GWR 1930s inspired options and goes through less populated country, some of it 'brownfield' (the clay pits) and some following an existing busy transport corridor (the A38). Like any other DAL option this would allow express trains to bypass the coast line, and assumes the old route would continue to exist for local services for the long term foreseeable future. I make the point that with a significant reduction in the number of trains that have to use the sea wall it should be a great deal easier to obtain safe access for routine and preventive maintenance of the structures, allowing a continuation of the kind of major reconstruction and stregnthening we have seen following the recent damage to occur along further stretches into the future and hence safegaurding the route. The existing line is equipped with 2-way signals that can be used easily to divert westbound trains onto the inner track closest to the cliffs, normally only used for eastbound traffic. This can be used at quiet times now to secure a safe traffic-free worksite for maintaining and repairing the wall, and is useful during emergencies or during very rough seas to simply keep the trains further from the waves. The high level of traffic on the line now means this can't be used very often however, without delays. If the expresses were removed to a fast bypass however, there would be many more opportunities available to close one or sometimes both lines for maintenance which might then be carried out in complete safety during the week, not during expensive weekend (noisy!) night shifts when other worksites thoughout the rail network are also competing for scarce manpower and plant. My proposal is illustrated in the following summary presentation:
http://www.townend.me/files/southdevon.pdf
Welcome Marky T to this website.
Have you sent your proposals to NR or any other 'power that be' decision maker?
Great contribution MarkyT. Particularly liking your capacity and maintenance logic which is something that a proper DAL provides as a big positive extra to Dawlish stopping services. One of the existing issues rarely mentioned is the frequency with which stoppers and late expresses currently foul each other up between NA and Exeter. Massively agree with the shortest route concept, tunelling etc. Also, with your detailing at NA which takes full advantage of the Heathfield route by completely separating services at NA, rather than it only starting the DAL part way down the Teign estuary which otherwise would still retain a capacity pinchpoint. Not sure how the Alpington end works with all the development there.
Lastly, I get the concept of building a straight high speed passenger line meaning you can then get away with steep gradients (i.e. as per TGV practice) but don't understand the maths quoted on the graph, 'max slope 15.8%, -28.7%' ?
The figures in the elevation graph are the maximum ground slopes of the traced path, not those of the railway alignment which I superimposed over the standard elevation profile provided by Goodle Earth. Actual average gradient between Exeter and the line summit in tunnel under Haldon would be about 1 in 70, or 1.4%. The steepest gradient taking into account vertical curvature and any variation of the route to limit visual intrusion and noise polution of possible viaducts around Dunchideock could be as much as 1 in 40, or 2.5% which is the maximum planned for HS2 and similar to existing gradients west of Newton Abbot. I am going to adapt the drawing to obscure those confusing figures!
I wrote to various local Devon MPs and the Secretary of State for Transport Patrick McLoughlin. His office replied that my ideas had been forwarded to NR for their study, I later had confirmation of this from their community relations unit. My local MP Adrian Sanders, also on the Commons Transport Select Commitee, replied positively that in the longer term a new line would be developed although it could be "decades", and that ". . . the Okehampton route does not offer the benefits some journalists are suggesting and in the meantime, the shoring up of defences at Dawlish is the only practical and cost effective solution"
An NR document was published by the BBC here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/26_02_14_dawlish_jmo.pdf
This states (page 12) -
---
Alternative route options (1)
We need to be thorough and provide long-term solution for the railway.
Currently we are taking views and exploring all options.
Suggested options include:
a) Reinstate the Okehampton line (between Plymouth-Exeter, via Okehampton), which closed in 1967
b) Create a new line connecting existing freight lines from Alphington (near Exeter) and Heathfield (near Newton Abbot)
c) Options between Newton Abbot and Exeter (with new tunnels) –
but current level of trains via Dawlish route could be maintained
i) Exminster – Newton Abbot
ii) Starcross – Newton Abbot
iii) Dawlish Warren – Newton Abbot
d) Make the coastal railway more resilient
---
Option (b) suggest a direct new route between the remaining former Teign Valley stubs, although the accompanying map on page 13 traces the old Teign Valley route for this option.
Note that the qualification stated in (c) about local trains remaining on the Dawlish route could apply equally to the more direct route.
@MarkyT - i can see the virtues of the theme, 'if you are going to build a new line make it a fast one' being applied to dal (as well as hs2). with respect to the oke-tavy reopening this is the option that intrigues me most as to how much 'traction' (pardon the pun) it may or may not gain. in particular, i just wondered how much virtue my suggestion about the matrix of journeys it potentially offers has. i.e. instead of the negative comments on this option about the 'reversing at exeter then reversing at plymouth' simply take advantage of this by efficiently using it on a daily basis as a ready made 'dartmoor circular' stopping route linking 'everywhere to everywhere' north and south of dartmoor? please see my comments on the thread of:
'Central Devon MP backs Okehampton...'
This thread is now so boring! My opinion the so called avoiding line will cost way to much.
Despite prefering my fast DAL for speeding up the main line to the west, I'm certainly not against the Okehampton route as a very useful local connector and a means of accomodating future growth in traffic and the local economy. I would see it ideally as an extension of the SWT Waterloo - Exeter service. As well as connecting Tavistock and Okehampton into the network that could give excellent direct regional connectivity from Plymouth to Exeter Central, Honiton, Axminster, Yeovil and Salisbury, serving Exeter airport as well if a station nearby and suitable transfer facilities to the terminal were provided. Whilst the journey time to London going north of Dartmoor is never going to beat the GWR route, now and especially if enhanced in the future, that is already the case with SWT from Exeter, yet together with healthy business to and from its intermediate stations, traffic has grown significantly on this route, helped by SWTs ability to compete with FGW on price. Plenty of potential journeys from Exeter to the south east are faster, cheaper and more convenient by changing from SWT at Salsibury, Basingstoke, Woking or Clapham Junction than by going via Paddington and crowded tube to another central terminal. Not all journeys are to or from central London.
@MarkyT - re your comments about rail line and Exeter Airport. New Town, Cranbrook, presently being built very close to Exeter Airport. Cranbrook is scheduled to have a railway station - on the Exeter/Waterloo line. Due to open 2015.
Ref Cranbrook-Airport - Direct train from Plymouth, now there's a handy service I hadn't though of, given the loss of Plymouth airport. Yes 'suitable transfer facilities' - very key to making a sucess of this. Probably just my perception, but local buses do seem to have an uncany knack of being scheduled to depart either at or minus 10mins of principal trains arriving!!
You are correct Lynne no one is making me read it.... It was my opinion, am i not entitled to an opinion. It would seem that you have dominated this thread with your own opinions, enough already.
The Cranbrook station site appears to be about 4 km by road from Exeter airport terminal. That could be halved if the terminal facilities were relocated to the north of the runways, accessed from the B3174 (the old A30) as part of the skypark development. Then (presumably?) frequent local buses between Exeter and the Cranbrook Development could call at both the airport and the station en route.
@Brooklyn Bridge - "This thread is now so boring! My opinion the so called avoiding line will cost way to much."
Thank you for personally e-mailing me more or less saying to me what you have put in your post above. As you know, I have responded back to you personally. I cannot remember my exact response but it was something along the lines of if you find the topic of a particular thread boring then why continue to read it, let alone post on it? Yes, I have posted on this thread quite a bit as indeed I have on other threads. I like to write. If what I write bores you (or others)then I would point out that no-one, as far as I am aware, is forcing anyone to read what I have written. And I may have posted quite a bit but that hasn't stopped others from also doing so, has it? Not sure if it is the topic of this thread that is boring you or if it is my postings. Markyt and Clive seem to find it an interesting thread judging by their posts.
I find the sports pages of newspapers incredibly boring. So I don't read 'em. But I understand they are the first pages some people turn to.
Do so hope this thread doesn't degenerate into personal having goes at each other. This thread is about the Dawlish Avoiding Line. If that is boring to some so be it. Point is, it isn't boring to others.
Your not on the council by any chance are you? i will now crawl under my rock and consider myself chastised.
So, to return to the topic of the Dawlish Avoiding Line and associated matters arising therefrom.
@Marky T - Re Exeter Airport. Don't know if the info to be found in this link is of any interest to you.
http://www.exeter-airport.co.uk/masterplan
@Lynne - Reading the masterplan, Exeter Airport wants to stay and expand at their existing terminal site for the foreseeable future. I suppose with all the air engineering, car parking and support businesses clustered around the existing site it would be very expensive to move the whole operation to the north side, but i wonder if it could be split with engineering and freight remaining on the south and the passenger terminal only moved to the north. then for parking an automated heathrow style ultra podcar shuttle could link existing car parks to the new terminal around the west end of the runway, and it could be extended to cranbrook station also offering a way to expand car park provision at more distant sites. an ultra shuttle to the station and remote parking could also allow the airport terminal to stay where it is. I found this great interactive map of exeter and east devon's masterplan -
http://www.iviewer3d.co.uk/eed/interactive.htm.
It doesn't show Cranbrook station site though.
Very interesting 'fly through' to watch on the interactive. I may be wrong but it seems that there planned new are east and west chords to the mainline railway into a 'freight terminal'. The interesting thing is that it heads fairly directly towards the runway but stops short of it .... so while constructing it, surely there would be some sense in extending it just a little further and bingo you are at the airport?!
I'd be wary of an additional dedicated passenger rail spur into the airport. It could be complex to interwork with operations in the proposed freight terminal without additional tracks, and I wonder what train services would use it. SWT would probably not want to divert their Waterloo trains in to reverse back out to Exeter, but an additional local stopping service from Exeter might work, before continuing on to Honiton or Axminster, and that service might be the Okehampton train, possibly extended to Plymouth if the onward connection ever got built. An airport spur might even be able to to create the capacity to run such a local service by providing an additional place for fast services to pass or overtake the additional locals on the single track, A higher frequency shuttle from Exeter would probably need double track throughout, and whilst it's only 2 km from Broadclyst to Pinhoe where the double track begins now, the M5 bridge over the single line just east of Pinhoe was built shortsightedly without clearance for a second track.
Regarding relocating the passenger terminal to the north of the runway next to the Skypark development, the outline planning report for the wider new community development clearly assumes there is a proposal to do this and treats it positively with respect to improving transport connectivity. Perhaps there has been such a plan in the past, but it's not mentioned as far as I can see in the airport's own master plan found by Lynne.
http://www.eastdevon.gov.uk/plg_new-comm-report-maintext.pdf
From that link that Marky T has given above
Yes I can see that as a great idea, a stopper from Ex.S.D. to Honiton via the airport to allow for passing. Main SWT service could then run fast Honiton to Ex.Central. As you say, a bit more complicated than that with all the single line restrictions along there.