General Discussion
Yes I also think it is brilliant and inspirational.
I see the link has now been posted on Eyes.
So, come on then town - let's push for something similar here.
Looks like it has great potential. You can imagine a tidal bow wall stretching from Red Rock to Lanstone Rock. That would protect the railway, generate electricity and provide sea-sports facilities for tourism
This is exactly what I said in my "what if" post , it is not rocket science. In the second world war we managed to build a artificial harbour that was towed to the coast of France Just don't get the Enviroment Agency involved.
Don't get them involved because they don't have the money for such a project thanks to the Tories. Sadly, despite it bein a commendable idea worthy of investigation, Cameron and his old-Etonian friends wouldn't get involved in such a project as there's nothing in it for them personally - unlike the fracking contracts that are nearly as much a corrupt disgrace as the stealth privatisation of the NHS is.
Money, money, money, money.
Just been watching the news on BBC. There's a report that Network Rail has already decided on its preferred inland route (from Exeter via Okehampton, Tavistock and hence to Plymouth).
BUT - they say it will cost £100s of millions and of course they do not own all the land and some of the land that once had the line has now been built on. Compulsory Purchase orders could sort that out (isn't that what is happening on the proposed HS2 route?) but will increase the cost even more. Then of course there is the question of how long it would take to build this alternative route.
So..........what would be cheaper and quicker to achieve? That inland route or something like the Swansea lagoon project built at Dawlish to protect the coastal route?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26110559
PS Might I suggest a mass lobbying of our MP and letters to the Dawlish Gazette advocating this lagoon idea and pointing out that such a scheme is possible - look at Swansea!
Come on folks every discussion that involves Network Rail Goverment Ministers they all want a inland route the figures that are being talked about just to repair the damage to the wall and the rebuilding of the station platform are in the region of 300 to 400 million pounds that of course is for a proper job. But as you all know it will be patch and make do the media attention has already switched to the Thames valley and the M4 corridor. Our first priority should be to have the existing wall repaired to the highest standard possible that would not only secure the rail link but more importantly it will protect property and the town. As we talk about this further severe storms are on there way to my mind all we need is a wall higher, wider, stronger than ever before, concrete and steel it doesnt matter what it looks like as long as it does its job nothing fancy just a bloody great big wall.
http://www.torquayheraldexpress.co.uk/South-Devon-MPs-pledge-Dawlish-rail-route/story-20582650-detail/story.html
according to the article in that link the parliamentary Transport Select Committee is holding an enquiry into the Dawlish rail collapse on Feb. 25th. Perhaps it might be an idea for those committe members to be made aware of the Swansea lagoon idea?
Here's a list of the Transport Committee members. Note that Adrian Sanders sits on it and he is the MP for Torbay.
|
Member |
Party |
|---|---|
|
Mrs Louise Ellman (Chair) |
Labour/Co-operative |
|
Labour |
|
|
Labour/Co-operative |
|
|
Labour |
|
|
Conservative |
|
|
Conservative |
|
|
Conservative |
|
|
Liberal Democrat |
|
|
Conservative |
|
|
Labour |
|
|
Conservative |
@Lynne. what has adrian sanders got to do with it? he`s mp for torbay. dawlish is not torbay. also, do you honestly believe that a lagoon will work. there`s big arguments going on about swansea bay. what will a local enquiry achieve about Dawlish? Leatash post was very good said it all really.
@stephen15 - what Adrian Sanders has got to do with it (along with Sarah Wooliston MP for Totnes) and whoever the MP for Ivybridge is, is that the line going through Dawlish presently serves people living in their constituencies. Therefore it is in the interests of their constituents that the Dawlish line continues to exist.
So - let's explore options about how to do that. That's what I'm saying.
MPs call Patrick McLoughlin MP to give evidence on rail flooding
The Transport Committee has called Patrick McLoughlin MP, the Secretary of State for Transport, to give oral evidence on rail flooding on Tuesday 25 February at 5pm.
Mr McLoughlin will be asked about what the Government can do to restore rail links to south west England, following the collapse of the sea wall at Dawlish. The Committee will also ask questions about how flooding is affecting other parts of the rail network and whether better infrastructure planning could have prevented the current situation.
Committee Chair Louise Ellman MP said “The railway network is struggling to cope with this winter’s exceptional stormy weather. We are looking to the Government for the decisive action needed to restore rail links to south west England and to protect the railway from flooding in other areas”.
Tuesday 25 February 2014, Room TBC
@Lynne. trains from newton abbot to paignton are ok although with delays as is totnes. does the sea wall at teignmouth do its job? its curved at top.similar one at jersey.
@Stephen 15 - if, as I understand it to be the case, the only rail route in and out of the south west beyond Exeter is presently via Dawlish then unless the Dawlish situation is resolved there is no through route in or out of the south west. Even if the inland route were to get built, and ignoring the cost for the moment, how long would it take to construct? and therefore how long would the south west not have a through rail route? That is why it is important for the Dawlish problem to be resolved as quickly as possible and as storm proof as possible. All options to be considered as far as I am concerned.
and @ yesterday this is what Adrian Sanders had to say on the rail situation here (my emphasis in bold).
"Three big issues face the South West and the future of its rail links to the rest of the country.
The first big issue is resilience east of Exeter. What we do west of the city is irrelevant if we cannot get beyond Taunton in the north and Crewkerne in the east.
Being cut off at Exeter for the second year running presents an opportunity to focus on what is in all our best interests and that means reliable, faster and greater capacity services to and from the West Country.
The Government has already given the go-ahead for the electrification of the line between Paddington and Bristol and Reading and Newbury. Our task is to remind the powers that be that there is life south and west of these soon to be electrified lines and they ought to be extended in our direction.
Crucially we should argue for the electrification of the line from Newbury to Exeter with the potential of reducing journey times into Paddington by 45 minutes. Plymouth makes great noise about wanting journey times under 3 hours, electrification can bring Plymouth to London in under 2 and a half hours with no loss of services to other communities along the route.
We should also make the case for duelling the second line out of Exeter to Salisbury to increase capacity and run express services to Waterloo only stopping at main interchange stations rather than everywhere. This could create real competition for passengers and put pressure on our very high fares to and from London.
The second issue must be to protect life, property and the economies of the communities along the Dawlish line. The railway line protects the banks of the Exe and Teign estuaries as well as flood defences along a four mile stretch by the sea. Take away the rail line and you have over 12 miles of infrastructure the taxpayer will still have to maintain. The loss of tourism trade, while most acutely felt at Starcross, Dawlish Warren, Dawlish and Teignmouth, will also impact on reduced numbers of day trippers to Exeter and visitors to Torbay’s many attractions..
Keeping the Dawlish line as our main line is also crucial for the thousands of people who commute between Exeter, Newton Abbot and Torbay to and from the stations in between. The repercussions economically and environmentally do not appear to be fully understood by those who advocate a new in-land line, even one that retains Newton Abbot as a main station.
The third issue is to ensure the costs of improvements do not fall on rail users. The people who travel by train are not the only beneficiaries of rail transport and few other countries of the world expect those who use public transport to meet the full costs of its provision. Fares to and from the West Country are already the most expensive on the network and must not rise in the future on the back of new investment.
If we can get a long-term solution to protect the coast-line and allow a railway to continue to run on or alongside it we can turn our attention to a relief route for those few days this stretch of rail requires maintenance. Talking about such alternatives now is a massive distraction from the opportunities the current problems present to get a railway serving the West Country that is faster, more resilient, has greater capacity, and doesn’t disadvantage any community currently served.
* Adrian Sanders is MP for Torbay.
http://www.libdemvoice.org/adrian-sanders-writes-from-the-cutoff-far-south-west-38161.html
On BBC 1pm news. Electrification of lines in Berkshire means trains cannot run as its not safe.. A normal train could run along the track. An electric line along the sea sounds a bit risky!
@Lynne (12.50pm post). yes i agree with that but not inland route. network rail have got specialist engineers advice and army advice about making the sea wall stronger. that was on westcountry tonight or spotlight, 1 of the 2.
From last Wednesday's Prime Minister's Question Time:
Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): No doubt the Prime Minister saw the scenes of destruction resulting from storm damage in Dawlish in my constituency. Our railway line is out of action, 25 families have been evacuated and one house is about to fall into the sea. Devon and Cornwall feel cut off. Can he confirm that he is taking all the action possible to get transport systems back in action and families back into their homes and, crucially, that he will look at fast-tracking a review of the funding for a breakwater to protect the railway line and residents, which currently cannot be implemented until 2019 because of lack of funding?
The Prime Minister: I am very happy to look at all the suggestions my hon. Friend makes. That is why we are holding the meeting of Cobra this afternoon. Members right across the House will know that that railway line is not only a vital artery for the south-west, but one of the most scenic and beautiful lines anywhere in our country, so what has happened is hugely upsetting and disturbing. We will look at all the options, and we will do so with great urgency.
letter in today's Dawlish Gazette:
There is a major project being proposed in Wales called Tidal Lagoon Swansea Bay, which is currently seeking planning approval. A similar scheme may be the ideal solution to our failing sea defences and offer long term security to our railway. Such a scheme would offer both coastal and riverside protection to an area from Exmouth-Dawlish Warren-Dawlish -Teignmouth and settlements on the rivers Exe and Teign.
The scheme would also provide tidal generated electricity, a tourist attraction and offer many more benefits.
A massive and expensive scheme with environmental problems – yes. A hugely beneficial project, creating jobs and world leading construction techniques, along with a huge financial gain to the local economy – definitely.
If this is of interest to you and you consider such a proposal would be beneficial for Dawlish and would like to be part of a small research team to establish facts, figures, potentials and pitfalls, contact me at dare.fordawlish@virgin.net.
The letter writer is happy to see massive construction work at sea but not a few houses in a field next door. Goodness me, the irony.
Does the Swansea Bay scheme have two major rivers flowing into it? I think the letter writer has got the scope of the proposal completely wrong. Not that they're well known for blowing things out of all proportion...
Well.....as I see it what the letter writer is saying is.......... let's look at all the options in terms of securing the Dawlish seawall rail link. It might well be the case that what he has in mind won't be suitable for the Exe Estuary/Dawlish sea front/Teign estuary but I think the point he is making is that we won't know one way or t'other unless it is looked into. Perhaps a variation on what is proposed at Swansea might be suitable for us in Dawlish?
According to the local tv news broadcast this evening it seems that the damage to the rail line is not restricted to Dawlish but also goes further over towards Teignmouth. Even more reason then for a large breakwater from the Exe to the Teign?
Come on folks lets come back to earth a tidal lagoon where will the money come from, and what would be the cost millions maybe billions. In Swansea they raised £400,000 to get things to the planners you and i know you wouldnt raise £400 in Dawlish. And then is it cheaper to build a tidal barrier or a new line bypasing Dawlish the maintainance costs of a barrier would be huge while maintaining a inland line nominal its all about money and the cheapest solution will be built.
Well, money has to be found from somewhere to keep the estuary/sea defences in working order, railway line or no railway line. Or, if not, then it's a population retreat from Starcross, the Warren and parts of Dawlish as it would only be a matter of time before a rising sea level plus stormy weather would result in a breach of the sea wall. That would then take out the A379 anywhere from Starcross through to Teignmouth.
So, if its a new inland rail line we are looking at perhaps we should also be looking at a new inland A road to replace part of the present A379?
Now, there are breakwaters and then there are breakwaters so I guess how much a breakwater would cost would depend on all sorts of factors. But.......according to the Gazette (page 7 of its February 12th edition) "figures released this week have revealed that a breakwater off Dawlish is likely to cost around £300m." You would have to ask the Gazette where they got that figure from.
If that figure is correct, that is just the cost for a breakwater off Dawlish alone. The nonsensical proposal from John Wilkinson to have one stretching from Exmouth to Teignmouth is pie in the sky (sea)!
Why is it pie in the sky (sea)? It might be. But you haven't said why you think that to be the case.
It is impossible to protect all of our coast where do yopu stop if predictions on sea level rises are correct we need to build a wall from Teighnmouth to Marsh Barton and then back to Exmouth. So if you look at the Enviroment Agency flood predictions for estimated sea level rise Starcross, parts of Kenton and Marsh Barton are no longer there. So yes Lynne we need to act but they wont they will keep building at Starcross why because they all have their heads in the sand it will happen its just a matter of when.
Thing is, not all of the coast has a main line railway running along it right next to the sea. We do. Furthermore, it is the one and only route in and out of the further south west. So, until and unless another line is built further inland the railway that we presently have has to be protected from the rising sea levels. The question is how best to do that.
Its not rocket science concrete and steel higher and wider bigger the better dont matter what it looks like as long as it stands up to the sea.
A reef 300 yards offshore with a marked boat entrance, this would take the force out of the waves. In addition rebuild the groynes and pump sand up to the sea wall. It will be a lot cheaper than building a new line at 600 million.
And, of course, it is not only the low laying areas that would be adversely affected if we do not protect the coast/rail line from the sea. Just type in Dawlish Teignmouth landslips and hit the search button. You'll find lots of links!
There is quite a bit of housing built on the cliff top going from the Warren Copse part of Dawlish through to Teignmouth. I wonder how much of it would survive if the cliffs on which it is all built weren't protected from, and strengthened against, the abrasive effects of the sea?
@leatash - ref. concrete - which is exactly what is being done at the breach - 5000m3 of mass concrete for starters!!
@Lynne - according to the latest dawlish news in the 'new civil engineer' magazine, "...network rail has 32 separate landslips and cliff failures to deal with." - qed
@Lynne - won't even start to make a technical comment on the mansion story....the pictures say more than enough...very sad, the name king cannute has just come to mind.
There is a picture on the front of this week's Herald Express showing the damage to the sea wall at Teignmouth. The article accompanying the picture goes on to say;
"Yesterday engineers revealed the true extent of the project. Along with the gaping hole left at Riveriera Terrace in Dawlish there are also 525 metres of parapet walls damaged, 256 metres of main seawall to repair, 276 metres of walkway and 32 separate landslips to deal with. Engineers have already poured 5,000 tonnes of steel into place in the main hole at Dawlish alone. But still remaining are 120 metres of seawall to build, 13 miles of cables to be reinstated and rebuilding of the road at Riveriera Terrace. Network Rail chief executive Mark Carne said creating a storm tolerant route may involve building a breakwater in front of the seawall."
@Clive I realise what is going on as i have been there everyday watching the work being carried out my point is that needs to be done over the length of the wall otherwise it will breach in another place it has to be future proofed.
@leatash - yes i see what you mean, there's is the rub right there. unless the other 3+something remaining miles gets the treatment of similar vast quantities of mass concrete (or reefs etc) it could easily become the 'weakest link' next time.
@Lynne - reference to 'breakwater' by nr - shows the thinking of what is genuinely required to protect both rail and town. this will of course have a certain amount of bogof advantage when it come to costs advantages. if i lived anywhere near the front i would be puttting my hand up to see all available money going into this as the sole investment for a long term solution.
@Clive "if i lived anywhere near the front i would be puttting my hand up to see all available money going into this as the sole investment for a long term solution."
I think this is the very point I am trying to get across. From Starcross to Teignmouth, whether low laying land or cliff top houses - it is in everyone's interest for there to be flood/coastal defences. Not to mention the benefit to the railway.............
BTW I forgot to say that in the picture I referred to in my earlier post there, in the background, built on top of, and down the cliff, are houses. Wonder what would happen to them then if no coastal defence eh?
@Clive ,
@Leatash , @Lynne. Am I right in saying that you think NR are wasting there time doing what they are doing , unless they build a breakwater. this is what Ann-Marie Morris wants.
There is a programme on to-night at 7.15pm on sky channel 504. it`s the transport select committe about winter reslience of the transport system with specific reference to rail flooding. so you know who will be there putting his oar in. it`s until 9.pm. if it repeated i will let you know.
@Clive NR are doing a great job as far as it goes my personal view is they should be extending the repair from the HOLE all the way to Red Rock and to Boat Cove. But i am no engineer and the onsite chief engineer tells me the weakness was where the wall dropped to beach level this of course will now be one level as far as i am concerned a great improvement no more wet feet at high tide.
@stephen15 what i am saying is that the railway needs to be up and running asap and then to make it more resilient for the long term more engineering work out at sea will be needed ie a breakwater/reef. and before anyone tells me that i'm not an engineer, an oceanographer, a hydrologist, or any other profession that would give me an informed opinion on this matter, i would agree. it just strikes me as being common sense.
I don't have Sky so can't watch the programme. But thank you for letting me know about it. Others who have Sky may watch it.
I have a relation working there at the moment and can assure you all, that when finished you will be amazed on how thick and resillient the wall will be. Steel rods have been put in the footings with concrete then poured into the shuttering, more than was ever there before. Good time is being made, so lets just look forward to the line being open, and whatever else needs doing will follow
@Lynne - i think you have raised an interesting point about houses - there are essentially four vulnerable zones:
1. Hard defences (i.e. the sea wall)
2. Cliffs behind the hard defences
3. Cliffs unprotected from the sea (Mansion picture)
4. Low lying, vulnerable to flooding
A reef or similar helps with all of these vulnerabilities, but without one, then the long term prognosis for No.3 in particular and possibly No.4 only has one unfortunate outcome.
@roberta - agreed - the 'breached section' will probably end up being the strongest section by far of the whole 4miles!
If you accept that we have climate change and accept that sea levels are likely to rise up to 1metre and that could happen in the next 40 years but could be sooner then time is running out. Watching a recent program about flooding and sea defences there where four Dutch engineers experts in flood defence there opinion the British public refuse to talk about the cause climate change and that is the starting point. The weather we have experianced this winter is possibly only the tip of the iceburg,we were ill prepaired for this winter never mind anything worse but the bottom line is we cant afford to protect every town village house and some will have to go.
@stephen15 - transport select committee meeting was broadcast on the parliament channel 81 last night. saw most of it. will try and get transcript. noted that nr chief exec talked of looking at building breakwater here.
@leatash - would agree with virtually everything you say in your post above. but thing is, and as i have pointed out before, we need to protect this bit of the coastline as it carries the one and only rail link into and out of the further southwest. and i do so hope the dutch do get consulted on our flood defence problems - after all i should think they are the most knowledgable with regard to such matters.
Then there is Prof. Roger Falconer of Cardiff University.
https://www.engin.cf.ac.uk/whoswho/profile.asp?RecordNo=19
Wonder what he'd have to say?
The Planning Inspectorate has today (6 March 2014) accepted for consideration the application by Tidal Lagoon Swansea Bay plc (TLSB) for consent to build the Swansea Bay Tidal Lagoon.
Acceptance means that the application has reached the required standards to proceed to public examination before being determined by the Secretary of State for Energy & Climate Change. Natural Resources Wales will consider in parallel an application for the marine licence that is required due to the Project’s location in Welsh waters. The marine licence application was itself accepted for consideration on Friday 28 February
I recently wrote to Anne-Marie Morris about the tidal lagoon. Received a long reply back about options they are looking at re railway routeing and/or protection but no comment at all on the tidal lagoon idea. Looks like another letter needed!
You got a letter back? Lucky you. I'm still awaiting a response.
Yeah - do send another letter Neil. I might 'n all. Anyone else fancy joining us?
That woman is a total waste of time i have written to her on numerous occasions and never had a reply elections are close so she has decided there's some mileage in getting involved. You mark my word when she is canvasing it will be i did this for Dawlish i did that for Dawlish if we hadnt had the gale you wouldnt have seen her untill a week before the election waste of space.