General Discussion
The only thing protecting Dawlish is the Railway network and if they decide
to reopen the old inland railway line to Plymouth they may abandon the
present route.
Exactly,
the point we have to keep pushing is that combining rail and flood defences makes best sense and is the cheaper option than re - routing
It is about time that they put 2 man-made islands just offshore to take the force out of the sea.
Go to Sidmouth and see what I mean. They should have done it years ago when the sea wall at the Warren was reinforced.
@Carer. how about raising the sea wall at the dawlish end, like they have at langstone cliff end. carer, i have not been to sidmouth but do these islands stop rough seas?
The Exeter inland route to Newton Abbot now is a serious possibility,
The risk of another awful disaster is great along the coast not to mention the cliffs and the cost of keeping the line in good order. IF the sea levels are getting higher I cant see the track can stay in place...how can it? Maybe in future trains will go from Exeter - Dawlish Warren and the line end there. It is interesting that .nobody has actually said there will actually miss catching the train in the next 6-8 weeks.
They could run a service from Dawlish Warren to Exeter and from Teignmouth to Newton Abbot and beyond as a shuttle
If the railway was re-routed in land, Dawlish would be in serious difficulties. We can't even afford to run a few public toilets.
However it will never be re-routed.
@Carer, I totally agree with your sidmouth style defences idea. That is the only answer.
Image source: http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1010491
The sea wall is vital as protection for Dawlish so if we accept that to be fact then presumably the track will stay on top of it. The problem is complex but if we believe the science sea levels are rising and severe weather events are increasing, so we probably need a stronger and higher possibly 3to 4 ft higher sea wall with flood gates at the viaduct. This event could be a wake up call for the local population to put pressure on the powers that be do get the job done now so instead of patch and do lets get the job done properly. wondering made a interesting comment that nobody has actually said they will miss the train and it could be 6 months not 6 to 8 weeks going by comments from the engineers on the news this morning. I have never used the train in 30 years but its value for Dawlish is immeasurable and without it the town would be finished the train brings visitors and holliday folk and those who just go for a day trip apart from its links with London etc etc we have to keep this important link open so get emailing and put on the pressure.
I use a Devon card that anyone can have at £2.65 return to Exeter it is a bargain.
I am reminded there @Lea of a job I once had. It was doing a survey to ascertain the needs of people on public transport. I will never forget this dear old lady at her door..she said 'oh you wont take that late night bus off will you ...its so good to see it go pass..ive lived here 30 years and never used the bus'
Paul The problem with sea defences listening to the experts and a little research is every piece of coast is different and what works for one may not work for another. I have no idea what the answer is but what i do know is that sea levels are rising and these weather events are increasing so we need a solution that retains the rail link and more importantly protects Dawlish.
@wondering - i don't use the train that often admittedly but it is my preferred form of public transport and is much cheaper to get to exeter/newton abbot than the bus and is even cheaper if using a devon and cornwall rail card (mine has just run out by the way. i almost renewed it the other day but the bad weather put me off going into the town to do so........). so, i for one will most definitely miss not being able to use the train.
I have absolutely no knowledge of engineering etc so what I am about to say is pure gut feeling.
At least six weeks before the track is mended? And the rest......and the rest.
Having to travel to Exeter on a very regular basis, I will miss the train Immensly.
1. It is (i believe) cheaper that the bus.
2. Takes at least half of the time to get there.
3. Train does not get held up in Rush hour traffic and not affected by the school run.
Thanks for posting the pictures of Sidmouth.
All good ideas. So perhaps we could have boulder islands in the sea like at Sidmouth and a sea wall like the curved one at Teignmouth but taller and flood gates at the viaduct.
Also re-instate the groyns to retain/build up more sand on the beach.
And on a related issue automatic sluice gates in the wears of the brook which open when there is a lot of water rushing down.
Image source: http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/646099
The curved wall like at Teignmouth would probably be the cheapest, and has there been any damage at Teignmouth? I haven't been - but the curved wall is meant to reflect the energy back out to sea, rather than taking a head-on impact. And while sea-levels are rising, it was the waves, the spring-tide, surge and the swell that did the damage, it'll be a very very very long time before a normal high-tide tops the sea wall at its current level -unfortauntely it was just a combination of all factors at the wrong time.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=592590804166868&set=pcb.592590974166851&type=1&theater TEIGNMOUTH
If you travel round the coast you will see the defences are all different curved walls, walls that slope with a curve a wall that changes as you walk along it curved one end 500 yds further on a flat wall the reason is every part of the coast is different beach slopes, tidal currents, rock sand, gravell, deep water of the beach sandbanks of the beach a thousand different combinations. Chris this event was by far not a one off i think you will find that Dawlish will take another pounding this weekend with the sea over toping the sea wall again.
Demolition and building of a new wall from Dawlish Warren to Teignmouth would require closing the line for a year or more.
(The photo of the curved wall at Teignmouth is on the beach - time not an issue in building that structure)
I'd suggest placing rocks on the seaward side of the wall. (Maybe like those in Dawlish Warren)
Lets be clear, the long term impact of this storm hasn't been felt by Dawlish yet - the odds that the town will lose its rail links have shortened considerably.
@leatash i didn't say it was a one-off, i said it was an extremely rare combination of factors; spring tides, surge, swell and a long-lasting force 9-10 se'ly (which has a much larger fetch at dawlish than a southerly or swly) hence large wind-waves on top of it all - otherwise every high tide the sea wall would get washed away, which it hasn't.
At the weekend, while I don't doubt that there will be huge waves and some inundation given the breaches in the sea-wall - it shouldn't be as bad the other day as the astromnomical tides are much lower and the wind direction will be primarily SWly, and Network rail say their primary job at the moment is to defend what's left, in preparation for this weekend.
What happened was extemely rare (fortunately), however with climate change, and rising sea-levels, this does shorten the odds of another similar event in many of our lifetimes.
Looking at the point of the breaching of the sea wall any one can see that it was the weakest place. All the rest of the wall is high and much thicker than at the point of the breach. Behind the wall at that point the infill was, as I understand it, sand, not the best thing to stop erosion in the event of a breach.
In addition there is nothing in the way of breakwaters built out into the sea to breakup the wave effect and to stop the beach being washed away, I think also that there needs to be a granite reef built along the coast from the Warren to Teignmouth (east cliff) that also breaks the wave effect without stopping the use of the beaches.
All of these things would make the line / seawall much more durable.
Also remember it is not only a railway track but works as a protection of the coast against erosion, if the railway goes how long will the seawall be maintained, after all Teignbridge District Council cannot afford to keep the toilets open, so what price a seawall.
It might not count for much when people homes are at stake right now, but if Dawlish ends up with a concrete monstrosity of a seawall, that really will be the end of the town. Seeing those TV pictures with the godawful viaduct and station in the background drags the town down as it is. We need adequate sea defences but we also need to preserve what makes Dawlish special.
It does seem to me why they have not built the sea wall further out.Having seen pictures
of trains under the breaking waves it seemed that a perfect storm was going to come.
What Dawlish could do with both for protection and generate revenue and tourism
is a harbour.
I too believe creating sea defences that enabled Dawlish to develop a harbour/marina of some sort would be a massive boost to the town. Whether that is possible I don't know, but now is the time for some big thinking.
And sorry for asking about what everyone seems to hold as fact, but why is it that if the railway wasn't there, the sea wall wouldn't be maintained? Isn't Network Rail a statutory company that takes its orders from the government? If Network Rail didn't do it, who would be responsible for the sea wall and why would they be entitled to allow it to degrade?
From an article in The Guardian
"The break in the line at Dawlish, which runs within metres of the sea, reignited the controversy over a failure to make the rail link to the far south-west more resilient. Suggestions have included rerouting the line inland or covering it with a shelter.
The Exeter MP, Ben Bradshaw, published a copy of a letter from the Peninsula Rail Taskforce, which includes local authorities, MPs and business leaders, sent to the government last month asking what had happened to £31m promised in 2013 for the resilience work.
The St Ives MP, Andrew George, warned that south-west MPs could withdraw their support for the HS2 and Crossrail projects unless the government showed commitment to providing a long-term solution to the vulnerability of the railway at Dawlish.
The transport secretary, Patrick McLoughlin, said a review of the "long-term resilience" of the line would evaluate a number of suggestions which have been put forward."
Apart from the vital route for the southwest into the capital the seafront rail line is surely one of the tourism highlights for Dawlish, not only the intercity trains but local carriages and not forgetting the steam trains that attract hundreds of visitors. Without this line I can see Dawlish falling off the tourist map which will have devastating effects for the whole community.
I wonder if they go inland whether Network Rail will shore Dawlish up with ugly concrete, hand it over to the Council and run. I wouldn't imagine there being any ongoing support for the area from them. Let's hope that's not the option they go for.
If they abandoned the railway line to go inland Teignmouth,Newton Abbot,Torquay,
Paignton and Dartmouth would lose so much from tourism.So it must favour getting
the present line repaired.For the present move Dawlish station to the Warren
I'm not making a case either way, I just think this is an opportunity to re-think things. Imagine how Dawlish could look if that ugly rusty zip wasn't in front of Marine Parade. A wide open promenade opening on to the beach would surely do more for the town than the railway siding it currently resembles. (And I suspect it wouldn't flood if the waves could flow back into the sea instead of being trapped by the railway.)
If tourism is so dependent on the trains why isn't Dawlish thriving? Same as a North Wales. Not everyone wants a beach holiday with a railway behind them. If Dawlish had more to offer than its railway station blotting the landscape maybe more tourists would come. Devon and this area is magnificent and if they can seek out towns on Dartmoor, they can surely get to Dawlish.
Mc ..thats a real vision...had not thought of that. It would look really open and welcoming and no more moans about the old rusty viaduct. Had now been 50 years ago when people did not have cars as much it would be different. Only a limited number now go on holiday by rail...most go abroad. As you say people seek out Dartmoor etc so why not Dawlish. ,
Thanks Wondering
So if they improve sea defences by building a sea wall out to sea, thereby enabling us to have a marina AND keep the railway line for steam trains etc, we'll be in a different league. We might even see house prices resembling Dartmouth's! Shame my three score years and ten will have expired by the time they get round to it!
In China we would simply build an underground tunnel for - how far is it - 4 miles?
Comparatively straightforward engineering project nowadays with tunnel boring machines.
After listening to the experts in London talking this morning and asking for surveys to look at bird movements on the beach before any sea defence work is carried out beggers belief. After the tsunami in Japan they rebuilt 53 miles of highe speed line that had been totally destroyed in 2 months no red tape they just got on with it. The weather men are predicting at least 2 more weeks of Atlantic lows all we need is the job done to protect peoples property that they have worked hard to get once they are safely secured then consideration can be given to reconecting our vital rail link.
Yes, all those millions of holidaymakers ARE enthralled when the train swings past Langstone Rock. I was one of them - on my way to Cornwall. What proportion of them get off the train and put money into the Dawlish economy? I was so taken by the view that I came to visit and ended up living here. For the rest that merely swing by, maybe we should have a toll booth on the track.
Now theres a idea take the HS2 money to upgrade the sea wall with a single track while building a new line north of Dawlish for the west coast route. So we would then have a single track running from Exeter to Newton a Heritage Line to be run privatly maybe steam only any train drivers out there.
The seawall has been breached in two places between Smugglers Lane and Sprey point (the wall has been closed off). It's not the same scale as the Dawlish breach - more like subsidence but it could easily go completely with more storms. The stone walls between the seawall and the railway have also been completely destroyed in two places with boulders scattered across the railway line. There's also another break at the Teignmouth end.
Anybody who thinks getting rid of the railway would somehow enhance the town is living in cloud cuckoo land. A rail link aids prosperity, once it's gone decline sets in, you only have to witness the resorts on the north coast that lost their railways in the Beeching era to realise that. It's not just about tourists either, plenty of workers commute to Exeter and elsewhere, and how many people would travel to Exeter to shop if they had to endure a bus journey. Talk of closing the coastal railway should not even be on the agenda.
Burneside. I'm genuinely open-minded about the pros and cons of the railway. Could you explain how Dawlish has prospered in recent years? Fourteen years ago I thought Dawlish, being on the mainline into London, was in a prime location and a dead cert to prosper, but in the intervening years I've seen no evidence of this. If anything I'd say it's declined.
The world has moved on since the industrial revolution and Beeching, lessons can be learned from the past but they needn't blinker you to the future.
You might not think Dawlish has prospered much in recent years, but do you really think the town would be a better place if the rail links to London and the rest of the country were severed?
No, I don't think I or anyone suggested that, I just wondered if it were possible to have the railway as a scenic/branch line not a mainline. I do think Dawlish would be a better place if the railway station and track didn't blight the town/Marine Parade etc. I think the station creates low expectations and breeds a lack of aspiration. I don't know Cornwall very well but I think there are a fair few towns that draw tourists and don't have a mainline or even branch line.
It strikes me that the places beyond Devon suffer severe traffic chaos
during the summer.If there is no alternative then people will have to use cars
It is no coincidence that many are thinking of reopening lines that beeching closed
and it was folly to sell the land when the track was ripped up.
"Well it strikes me people dont actually want to use the train anyway..just want to see it."
(That is a quote from a post by Wondering. The whole of Wondering's post has since been removed - presumably by its author.)
That isn't what I hear from people who regularly use that train route. In fact their moan is quite the opposite - that more rolling stock is needed to alleviate the overcrowding.
Wondering, plenty of us use the train in a daily basis to commute to work - the packed peak times trains are testimony to that. Just because the pensioners that post on this website don't use the trains, it doesn't mean that they're not a necessity. And I mean necessity.
That said, I do like Mjprc's lateral thinking.
Once Brunel had decided he wanted the railway to hug the coast on this part of the line, there really was no other place to put the station in Dawlish. Given the monumental projects Brunel pioneered in his career I don't think you can accuse him lacking aspiration, he was a major influence in making the town what it is today.
Burneside, I think you know full well I was not suggesting Brunel lacked aspiration. There's no need to try to misconstrue my words. In any event the railway has clearly been raised since Brunel's day and looks nothing like the original.
Mrs C I am a pensioner i dont use the train but i know the importance of the train service that not only serves Dawlish but serves the wider South West my daughter uses it every day to go to college my other children use it to go to Exeter, Newton etc etc. It is important we retain this service but what is the best solution for the wider South West a new line away from the coast with a local service for the coast route. Or the coast route rebuilt to withstand the increasing problems of climate change a stronger higher wider wall that will function for the next 100 years with its foundations sunk into the underlying rock so it cant be undermined by the action of the sea it doesnt matter what it looks like as long as it works. Do you want a tourist attraction or a functioning rail service thats there every day of the year winter and summer and a wall that stands up to the increasingly bad weather.
As the railway clearly offends you so much, where would you like it to be relocated, and who will pay for that? I have just looked at a photo from 1895 and the railway looks pretty much as it does now, maybe it's the beach that has changed.
Burneside, what's your beef with my opinion, it's just an exchange of views? I haven't suggested doing away with the railway. I said think the station is an eyesore and I thought the line had been raised which in my opinion changes Marine Parade and the seafront for the worse. If it hasn't been raised, I'm sure you'll correct me.
How about routing the mainline from Exeter to Newton Abbot and running not only a branch line/Heritage line from Exeter to Dawlish but also a tramline from Newton Abbot to Dawlish, terminating at Kennaway Tunnel. Tram stops are simpler and blend into surroundings and trams can run much more frequently. Dawlish station could be replaced with something more modest and the seafront between it and Kennaway Tunnel could be opened up. Commuters and tourists would both be served and Dawlish would be much more of a draw.
Move it inland running along side a new dual-carriageway following the existing A379 joining both at Exminster M5 and Newton Abbot A380. Open up the sea front with the much wanted cafe culture all the way along to the Warren and create a lovely big Marina by dumping tons of rubble across the estury in a line from Exmouth to Teignmouth. The bird lovers could move up country to the new Somerset Wetlands and we could develop our section of the south west into the modern world of the 21st century
If the existing line becomes a branch line - that doesn't reduce the costs of maintenance. They still have to repair it in the event of more sea damage. (and maintaining the cliffs at places like Shell Cove - on the landside, the red cliffs are weakening and prone to landslide)
It's binary - either keep it, and invest in making it as impregnable as 21st century engineering allows - or walk away, (either sel the real estate or let it crumble) and build inland.
Whichever is chosen, I doubt the interests/wishes of Dawlish people will factor large in the final decision.