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General Discussion

Paul
Paul
11 Oct 2013 11:20

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10371541/Sir-David-Omand-Snowden-leak-is-most-catastrophic-loss-to-British-intelligence-ever.html

The people that have leaked the West's secrets and the people that have assisted them are traitors to the very countries that have given them everything in life.

People such as Edward Snowden, Bradley Manning, Julian Assange, The Guardian newspaper, Glenn Greenwald and David Miranda all need to be dealt with swiftly and handed very severe punishments.

I take it that everyone is in agreement?

3 Agrees
OLD FART
OLD FART
11 Oct 2013 13:33

I would have thought that the U.K. Government could treat this as an act of Treason against the State. Couldn't they ?

3 Agrees
Paul
Paul
11 Oct 2013 14:20

I certainly hope they don't get away with it. I'd like to see them all do very lengthy prison sentences for their selfish need for fame.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2451540/David-Cameron-backs-spy-chiefs-attack-Guardian-BBC-buries-criticism-Left-wing-paper.html

We were obviously getting good information by 'listening in' to internet traffic. Now no enemy will use this to communicate and therefore we have lost a great intelligence source. Clearly endangering many people's lives.

1 Agree
neilh
neilh
13 Oct 2013 18:33

http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2013/oct/12/edward-snowden-awarded-sam-adams-prize-integrity-intelligence-video

 

All praise to the integrity of the likes of Edward Snowden who is prepared to stand up for freedom and against the oppression of Kafkaesque governments who abuse the liberties of the individual through clandestine monitoring.  He has courage.

5 Agrees
HuwMatthews2
HuwMatthews2
13 Oct 2013 21:03

No he doesn't.

He's a greedy little parasitical tick who should've been Frontlined at birth.

He has put many lives at greater risk....including yours!

5 Agrees
Paul
Paul
14 Oct 2013 10:27

Edward Snowden probably had to take an oath to do the work he was doing for his country. I don't see how he has any integrity whatsoever.

2 Agrees
neilh
neilh
14 Oct 2013 19:18

Strong words!  Parasitical tick eh?!!  He has the integrity to stand up against a government which is abusing power through covert surveillance operations that not only contravene their own legal boundaries but broader human rights.  I don't feel my life is at any greater risk from Snowden blowing the gaff on the NSA.  On the contrary he has opened the eyes of millions ( though probably I admit not on Dawlish.com!!) to the Orwellian direction our society is heading in through such clandestine activities.

4 Agrees
HuwMatthews2
HuwMatthews2
14 Oct 2013 22:20

I wonder if you'll still be applauding him when the bombs start going off in this country? I couldn't give a stuff who listens to my conversations or watches me on any number of the millions of cameras we have in this country if it helps to track down the scum terrorists who want to do this country, and its population, harm.

6 Agrees
jools88
jools88
14 Oct 2013 22:33

Calm down . no one is watching you . Or are they ?

1 Agree
Don Pearson
Don Pearson
14 Oct 2013 22:51

@neilh

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Clearly nobody who believes that people are the property of the state in which they happen to be born, bound to obey its laws, even if the state itself does not.

1 Agree
jools88
jools88
14 Oct 2013 23:06

"Who will guard the guards themselves?"  i agree.

1 Agree
neilh
neilh
15 Oct 2013 14:46

Interesting article by George Monbiot questioning who are the real threat to this country and other nations, and it ain't terrorists.

http://www.monbiot.com/2013/10/14/elite-insurgency/

2 Agrees
Don Pearson
Don Pearson
15 Oct 2013 16:38

@neil

Interesting. The silence of the Conservatives and its media hounds is not surprising, given that the party is only ever electable if it convinces people that it represents their aspirations. In fact,  it represents and serves the elite.

 

@Paul

In answer to your original question in the first post, you obviously can not "take it that everyone is in agreement."

1 Agree
roberta
roberta
15 Oct 2013 16:49

@Paul, not quite so simple a question was it

HuwMatthews2
HuwMatthews2
15 Oct 2013 23:10

George Monbiot? Really? The conspiracy theorists conspiracy theorist? I mean....really?

1 Agree
Paul
Paul
16 Oct 2013 09:26

Realism v Liberalism, as many of the threads on this forum are.

Objectivism - leaking state secrets obviously doesn't help us.

neilh
neilh
24 Oct 2013 22:25

35 international terrorists targeted by NSA - are these the people threatening western democracy?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10403598/World-leaders-had-their-phones-monitored-by-US-spies.html

jools88
jools88
24 Oct 2013 23:19

The White House told The Telegraph the US had never monitored David Cameron's communications but would not give the same assurance about other leaders  

Good old dave , who take's  any notice of dave LOL

2 Agrees
b.o.liking
b.o.liking
25 Oct 2013 08:15

I suspect Edward Snowden will be a bigger threat to intelligence security

than the Kim Philby spy ring.It would seem the yanks brought this on themselves

 

neilh
neilh
25 Oct 2013 12:11

And if you want a good laugh about the mockery of secret surveillance read the following article ......

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/no-wonder-the-us-is-spying-on-merkel-i-mean-you-never-know-8902183.html

 

(have chenged the link which didn't work before)

Oniscus
Oniscus
26 Oct 2013 22:18

Do these people really swallow everything that the Mail and Telegraph tell them to think ???

Snowden is a hero for exposing the surveillance that the NSA and others are perpetrating on us. Sure, a flawed hero - he shouldn't be leaking anything that'll jeopardise the safety of agents in the field.

But does anyone think for a second that major terrorist attacks are organised using the phone, internet and other clear channels? If there are going to be any more bombs going off in this country then I doubt PRISM is an effective way to stop them.

The scale and scope of the operation are well in excess of what's required for antiterrorism purposes. I don't want to jump to paranoid conclusions, but I think at this time we just can't be certain of PRISM's true objective.

5 Agrees
Paul
Paul
29 Oct 2013 10:37

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24710826

Snowden mostly is not a hero, he is a traitor. He should be assassinated asap.

Lynne
Lynne
29 Oct 2013 10:53

Why has Angela Merkel's phone been tapped? Is she a terrorist? EU officials? Are they terrorists? The leaders of other European countries? Are they posing a terrorist threat?     

Paul
Paul
29 Oct 2013 11:01

They may not be terrorists, but I don't see anything wrong with wide spread tapping to look out for terrorist related communications.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2400702/British-surveillance-facility-based-Middle-East-revealed-Snowden-leaks.html - Why did he revealed this?

Lynne
Lynne
29 Oct 2013 11:06

So, if you agree that they are not terrorists why then have they had their phones and other forms of communication listened into?

And I do wonder just how much the dirty tricks brigade are now up to their er..........dirty tricks. Black ops I think the spooks call it.

(Anyone else remember that really great tv programme Spooks and all the things they got up to?)

1 Agree
Paul
Paul
29 Oct 2013 11:10

It is obviously advantageous to tap world leaders to get an upper hand when dealing with them, as long as it is leaked out.

Lynne
Lynne
29 Oct 2013 11:28

As long as what is leaked out? The contents of whatever it is that has been listened into or the fact that they are having their communications tapped? And surely if things get leaked out then the gaff gets blown on the fact that someone, somewhere, is listening in?

Advantageous to whom? And who does the leaking? 

Since when have the leaders of western european countries posed a threat to either the UK or the US?

  

1 Agree
Paul
Paul
29 Oct 2013 11:38

Oops I missed out a word. I meant to type - 'as long as it is not leaked out'. Never mind.

My point is that none of what Edward Snowden has done is good for us, difficult to understand people calling him a hero.

Why did he really do it? I believe he just wanted fame and fortune.

1 Agree
neilh
neilh
29 Oct 2013 14:03

Headline today:  "Senate intelligence committee chair Dianne Feinstein declares she is 'totally opposed' to spying on US allies".  The US governement is rapidly backtracking and distancing itself from the nefarious, illegal activities of the secret organisations like the NSA.  The hero Edward Snowden, at great risk to his own life, has brought this out into the open and exposed these activities.  He deserved the award he received and lets hope he manages to survive safely.

2 Agrees
Paul
Paul
29 Oct 2013 15:17

I just don't see how a traitor is viewed as a hero. He leaked state secrets, he is untrustworthy and has let down the country that has given him everything.

I'm very grateful for all the other security workers that do carry out their duties responsibly and don't seek fame. Thank you yes

1 Agree
roberta
roberta
29 Oct 2013 15:43

@Paul   ( blinkered )

leatash
leatash
29 Oct 2013 17:55

Spying is just not about terrorists a country could gain advantage in overseas deals ie fighter aircraft specialised electronics etc etc.

Lynne
Lynne
29 Oct 2013 19:14

Slight tangent I know but............just wondering idly to myself whether the Chinese involvement in our nuclear energy plants might give rise to any future security issues?

 

Paul
Paul
01 Nov 2013 11:24

The leaking of secret state information has endangered the lives of people that work for the security services. People that put their own lives at risk on a daily basis to protect us. For many decades people have risks their own safety and sometimes paid the ultimate price for the safety of us all.

Anyone who thinks Edward Snowden is a hero should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

1 Agree
roberta
roberta
01 Nov 2013 13:09

There are far more important things to worry about in this Country, but as usual something comes along as a smokescreen to take the heat off the Government. Calling Snowdon a hero Im not sure about but glad he became a whistleblower

HuwMatthews2
HuwMatthews2
01 Nov 2013 23:58

Smokescreen? You're 'avin' a larrff aren't you???????

He's not a 'whistleblower' - that is something honourable.

Snowdon is a Traitor and his actions will result in the death of people who have, and are working to keep you safe. 

3 Agrees
Lynne
Lynne
02 Nov 2013 07:22

You know that saying 'Beware Greeks bearing gifts' - well........ perhaps that should be updated to 'Beware Chinese kettles and Russian freebee computer software'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2480900/China-spying-KETTLE-Bugs-scan-wi-fi-devices-imported-kitchen-gadgets.html  

Paul
Paul
03 Nov 2013 09:41

@HuwMatthews2, 100% true.

neilh
neilh
22 Dec 2013 20:36

Everyone seems to have conveniently forgotten about the illegal and unethical activities of the secret services who seem to believe that they are above the law.  The US is now rapidly back-tracking on the clandestine powers of the NSA:

"First, a federal judge took aim at the agency's vacuuming of the phone records of virtually every American. Richard Leon may have been appointed to the DC bench by Bush. But that didn't stop him declaring the programme unconstitutional and "near-Orwellian", one which would have left the Founding Fathers "aghast". The legality of the NSA's behaviour may or may not be upheld. Whatever happens however, the Supreme Court will almost certainly make the final decision; that alone ensures the matter will not quickly go away.  No less important, parts of all three branches of government are now ranged against the agency. A couple of days after the Leon broadside, an independent White House panel weighed in, in similar vein ..... Yes, the panel says, there is no evidence of specific individual cases of abuse by the NSA – but equally none of specific plots, terrorist or otherwise, that have been thwarted by the agency's work. On balance, the relentless gathering of "meta-data", containing numbers and times of Americans' phone calls (though, we are assured, not their contents), is a threat to personal freedom and, the panel argues, should be banned   ..... Finally, the telecom and tech companies that have hitherto allowed the NSA to snoop in total silence, should be permitted to provide at least general information about what the government is asking them to do ..... In Congress, meanwhile, the legislative branch is finally showing some teeth, having for years acquiesced in the lies proffered by America's government cyberwarriors on the rare occasions they are summoned to testify on the Hill. And even then, of course, the House and Senate intelligence committees were sworn to secrecy, rendering the process virtually pointless. Today Snowden isn't exactly a national hero – but no longer is he seen simply as a dastardly traitor, either. The sympathy is bipartisan, stretching from liberal Democrats fearful for civil liberties to the noisy libertarian Republicans.http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/barack-obama-puts-his-annus-horribilis-on-hold-9020096.html

And finally, the UN's senior counter-terrorism official is to launch an investigation into the surveillance powers of American and British intelligence agencies following Edward Snowden's revelations that they are using secret programmes to store and analyse billions of emails, phone calls and text messages.

 

So Edward Snowden is on the road to vindication.

3 Agrees
neilh
neilh
25 Dec 2013 11:26

Don't forget to watch the Alternative Christmas Message today - Channel 4 at 4.15pm.  smiley

leatash
leatash
25 Dec 2013 16:44

The security services do a great job and need free range to do the important job they do Edward Snowdon is a traitor lock him up and throw away the key.

neilh
neilh
30 Dec 2013 18:25

Interesting article in Der Spiegel about NSA hacking activities:

"The NSA's TAO hacking unit is considered to be the intelligence agency's top secret weapon. It maintains its own covert network, infiltrates computers around the world and even intercepts shipping deliveries to plant back doors in electronics ordered by those it is targeting ...... A document viewed by SPIEGEL resembling a product catalog reveals that an NSA division called ANT has burrowed its way into nearly all the security architecture made by the major players in the industry -- including American global market leader Cisco and its Chinese competitor Huawei, but also producers of mass-market goods, such as US computer-maker Dell."

For NSA it's probably safe to say GCHQ as well.

For those interested see:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/catalog-reveals-nsa-has-back-doors-for-numerous-devices-a-940994.html

 

There's also a rumour that Snowden is being nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize.  That'll put the secret services and their nefarious activities in their place!

2 Agrees
leatash
leatash
30 Dec 2013 20:46

If you have nothing to hide what's the problem they are more than welcome to monitor anything off mine they wish to.  Those who moan about our security services would be the first to create if a bomb killed one of their children.

1 Agree
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