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Paul
Paul
02 Mar 2013 18:51
1 Agree
Brazilnut
Brazilnut
02 Mar 2013 19:09

STOP reading the Sun and educate yourself Paul!!!

1 Agree
Lynne
Lynne
02 Mar 2013 20:16

Just out of curiosity Paul, what benefits do you think should be cut?

Lynne
Lynne
03 Mar 2013 07:11

Below is an extract from an article in today's Observer.  Thought it appropriate for this thread.

It seems we have a new national past-time - it's called Let's Bully the Poor

 

"How long would it take for "poor-shaming" to embed itself in the national psyche as borderline normal? Or perhaps it has already done so? The Methodists, the United Reformed Church, the Church of Scotland and the Baptist Union have joined forces to publish a study called The Lies We Tell Ourselves. It highlights myths surrounding people and poverty, including Iain Duncan Smith's much trumpeted "families out of work for three generations" line (which, it turns out, has never been backed up by data).

The report argues that the government is "deliberately misrepresenting" the poor, blaming them for their circumstances while ignoring more complex reasons, including policy deficiencies. Moreover, they feel that this scapegoating is the result of collusion between politicians, the media and the public.

This resonates with my feeling that, increasingly, the shame is being taken out of poor-shaming. It didn't seem so long ago that most people would think twice about denigrating fellow citizens who were having a hard time. These days, it appears to have been sanctioned as a new national bloodsport, regularly slipping under the PC-radar as little else manages to.

Nor is it just coming from politicians such as Duncan Smith, though he could be termed "Poor-Shamer General" for his absurd apocalyptic visions. A politician is one thing but these attitudes are spreading and hardening among ordinary people too. Indeed, poverty seems a trigger to inspire hate speech that would be quickly denounced if it related to race or gender. Only recently, there were startling amounts of venom levelled at a woman with 11 children, who needed a bigger council house. The fact that this woman had a notable number of children seemed to be a convenient hook for the more generalised abuse and resentment directed at pretty much anyone in need of council accommodation, or any help whatsoever.

Is this our new default setting – that the needy are greedy? This chimes with a slew of government policies that appear to be founded on notions of bulletproof self-reliance, making no allowances for circumstances or sheer bad luck, and which many would require huge amounts of help to put into practice, never mind sustain. Meanwhile, the more fortunate are invited to pour scorn upon anyone who fails.

How does this kind of thing escalate? That's easy. At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious, the poor are poor. They have no money, no voice, no representatives, and no means to establish their own public profile. Poverty is a big domino – once it falls, everything goes. In such circumstances, if a group of people are "deliberately misrepresented" then there's precious little they can do about it. The churches got it right – if anything, the truth seems so much worse that it must surely be time to put the shame back into poor-shaming. Just like slut-shamers, poor-shamers are bullies, and right now they're getting away with it."

1 Agree
neilh
neilh
03 Mar 2013 11:19

Great article.  About time we stopped spending on war (aka defence) and re-invested in building a better society, not a bitter society.

1 Agree
Paul
Paul
03 Mar 2013 11:25

People that are long term unemployed, able to work, but won't work, should lose their benefits.

Should the very hard working people in the Armed Forces lose their jobs because the money is needed to pay for the lazy?

1 Agree
Brazilnut
Brazilnut
03 Mar 2013 11:54

Im not going to resort to bad language (although I want to )

Get a grip on reality and stop letting propaganda get in the way, divide and rule is going on here. plus poor bashing. Those you are talking about are few and far between, how much more can you slash the benefits of the poor and disabled

Libby
Libby
03 Mar 2013 12:06

Paul -- what's it like to blunder your way through life without an ounce of human kindness or compassion for the plight of people you know nothing about? People such as yourself feel perfectly at liberty to express what you call 'opinions' but which are actually prejudices because they are not based on any facts. Shame on you and others like you

2 Agrees
Brazilnut
Brazilnut
03 Mar 2013 12:31

Paul at present these welfare cuts do not affect me directly but I feel compassion and humanity for those it does, and who knows what might happen in the future I think Im older than you and have paid into the system for 50yrs , do I adopt your attitude? NO

How about this Gov and successive Gov stop paying out millions in oversea aids and stop getting our troops involved in every war and conflict on this planet. Maybe its time to realise we have not got the resources to help our own addequately.

2 Agrees
Paul
Paul
04 Mar 2013 10:37

I have no problem helping people in need, however I can't stand people that abuse the system.

It cannot be fair that MOD personnel or any workers can lose their jobs because the money needs to be used to pay for people that should be working themselves.

Are you so naive to think we do not need a strong defence?

1 Agree
FredBassett
FredBassett
04 Mar 2013 11:21

You know all those single parent mothers that hang about Weatherspoons in Newton Abbot, how about training them up put them in uniform and send them to Afganistan

3 Agrees
Brazilnut
Brazilnut
04 Mar 2013 11:35

do you know they are on benefits? a lot of single parents do work maybe unsociable hours because its easier to get somebody to look after the children!!!!

also who would take care of the children if they were in the services!!!

cmon Fred

 

@Paul suggest you look at lynnes new post, and maybe if we didnt stick our noses into everybodies else argument we might be a bit safer in our own country, the mps are doing a bloody good propaganda campaign here divide and rule setting people against each other the enemy within springs to mind

neilh
neilh
04 Mar 2013 14:44

@Paul  The reason money is needed from somewhere is not because there are people out of work who won't work but because we are in one of the deepest recessions for decades brought about largely by international financial corporations who effectively perpetuated a global scam, at best dodgy, at worst criminal.  There is still a dire lack of integrity in the banking system which continues to bleed our resources (e.g. the 'reward' for £5 billion losses at RBS is still management bonuses of over £600 million).  If we can somehow get back to ethical banking then perhaps over time more money will come back into the economy to preserve jobs and improve benefits.  The way to really hurt banks is if everyone unitedly withdrew their money.  Now the Coop is an ethical bank so how about all closing your accounts with any other bank and transferring to the Coop, then make it go viral.  It's a good time to do it because interest rates are so low that it would make no difference to the man in the street but would send a big message to all the other high-street banks.

Duckileaks
Duckileaks
04 Mar 2013 15:01

@neil, the history of cooperative societies was based in mutual welfare and benefit to all.  Although they still support many local initiatives they are big business the same as any other.

 

coop bank told my dad when he queried why their isa rates are so low 'we're so big we're buying lloyds bank so we don't need your money.'

I've known several Coop staff off work with depression related illness brought about by work related pressure, their attitude seems to be that staff are easy to recruit so put up or shut up!

So don't put coop on a pedestal, they don't deserve it any more

1 Agree
Brazilnut
Brazilnut
04 Mar 2013 15:06

Paul alot of HB is paid to people who do work and are on low incomes, more than you think. Google it Im sure you will get the figures smiley

Paul
Paul
04 Mar 2013 15:11

At no point have I ever said or even thought that people who need some help should not get it.

I just think instead of cutting hard working people's jobs, perhaps some benefits could be reduced a bit.

1 Agree
Brazilnut
Brazilnut
04 Mar 2013 15:33

but those people who work and rely on help with their rent are going to be penalised by thses cuts, only 0.07% of welfare claimants are supposedly "scroungers" DWP figures

Paul
Paul
04 Mar 2013 15:45

Yes, but all sectors have suffered, schools, hospitals, police, mod. I don't see how the cost of the benefit system can continue to rise.

The welfare bill needs to be reduced, it's way too big already.

1 Agree
Brazilnut
Brazilnut
04 Mar 2013 15:59

your original post was reduce the welfare bill to save the troops, so far you have not come up with where to save this money from, even tho the welfare bill is about to be slashed!!!

I heard a good argument on jeremy Vine dinnertime, here one slash the Trident Programme, stop getting into new conflicts because even some of our disabled troops and serving men are going to be affected by this bedroom tax. and stop being good old generous Britain to all and sundry cant afford to keep our own so why keep outsiders

1 Agree
Lynne
Lynne
04 Mar 2013 16:40

@Paul

When you say Welfare Bill - what benefits are you including?

Just how much is the Benefit Bill?

Why do you believe it to be too big already?

FredBassett
FredBassett
04 Mar 2013 16:43

Dont understand why qualification for benefits is so simple and acceptable, all benefit payments should be means tested and NHS certified when required.

There should be a standard qualification requirement of 5 years paid national insurance contributions unless accident, illness or disability has created the need to claim, and all non British passport holders should be forced to have compulsary medical insurance  and no automatic right to claim benefit.

There also needs to be a rapid de-portation system without appeal to any non citizen conficted of a criminal offence, dealing drugs etc .

British society on a whole needs to tuffen up and not accept being ripped off and dictated to by foriegn owned utility companies, corrupt banks, bent councils, minority pressure groups, and non tax paying institutions. Charity should not only start at home, but should also end there.

HELP MAKE BRITAIN GREAT AGAIN AND KEEP THE FAITH

6 Agrees
neilh
neilh
04 Mar 2013 19:17

@Duckileaks.  hi.  not putting coop on a pedestal, it's the one bank i know which has an ethical policy.  there may be others - indeed have just found one proposed by friends of the earth.  yes all banks are big business but, if you can't get rid of them or change them the you can at least try to choose a "least bad" one.  how do you do that?  well a bank with a clear ethical policy is probably a good start.  smiley

@ Fred Bassett.  Brilliant!  Here's a thought.  France once had Devil's Island.  Perhaps we could introduce the same concept.  We must have some remote uninhabited island (Orkneys somewhere perhaps)  where we could deport all your benefit scroungers, and probably all prisoners as well, and let them get on with it.  It would toughen them up, reduce our costs, empty our prisons which could in turn be used for re-housing.  The idea could be extended to anyone of net negative worth to society - the disabled, long-term sick, elderly, even children (they're just parasites aren't they?).  The possibilities are endless .........

Lynne
Lynne
04 Mar 2013 19:41

@Fredbasset -  Keep the faith? Which one do you have in mind?  

FredBassett
FredBassett
04 Mar 2013 20:27

@Lynne

The saying itself as far as I can remember was the sign of the Northern Soul music followers at places like Wigan Casino and the Torch Stoke-On-Trent. Must have been late sixties, seventies era. The Dance music theme was an upbeat type of Motown. Have plenty of 45 vynal examples should you wish to borrow them.

Beside that any faith that promotes the Great in Great Britain and not the welfare of foriegn nationals in these difficult times will do nicely. Unless, as an island race we strive for a return to self surficiency, we are going to be held to ransom indefinatly.

We really do need to return to supporting national farming, nuclear power, medical research, transport and education policies etc instead of providing for european no marks and funding the corrupt African governments. If we really do need outsiders to assist and share ideas it should be with America as tradition dictates.

Paul
Paul
05 Mar 2013 13:28

Yeah why bother working when you can get benefits. I'm going to quit my job and get everything handed to me on a plate.

Rewarded for doing jack sh!t.

What a fool I've been working, paying for EVERYTHING myself, I should've gone on the dole years ago.

cool

1 Agree
Brazilnut
Brazilnut
05 Mar 2013 14:10

Paul you really are a p----, and so have I but does that make it any better, I have a family member on benefits and can assure you its no picnic, he couldnt even afford to have his heating on this winter and has sold evrything he has to survive, and yes he does work part time but should be on DLA but was told by Atos he could work even tho the dr said he couldnt, dont feed me your smug self centred billiotric comments, thats what wrong with people to day always think somebody is better off than them. Keep reading your tory propaganda Sun and Daily Mail

PS hes now been made redundant so until he can find a job will cost you more and yes he was worse off working, but he said he will find something if it kills him

FredBassett
FredBassett
05 Mar 2013 16:37

@Paul.

Wouldnt do that as it will undoubtedly back fire on you. You are'nt 16 and pregnant are you? Nor do I assume you to be Asian or Eastern European with no knowledge of the English language or culture. You may qualify if you are the Farther of 13 kids with several mothers  not working and relying on you for their fags, bingo money and booze.

Just stay at work and build up your pension ready for the day you can get the hell out of here.  

1 Agree
Lynne
Lynne
05 Mar 2013 18:09

Hey everyone!

I guess that if being on benefits is so great then all those workers who are about to lose their jobs at Axminster carpets just can't believe their luck. And just think how the local economy of Axminster will get a boost what with all that extra benefit money that will be in the town.

NOT!

 

1 Agree
Lynne
Lynne
05 Mar 2013 19:44

And let's not forget that if any of 'em are social housing tenants who until now have been paying their rent themselves and in full but who will now have to claim HB, that they might now become victims of the bedroom tax.

So, having just lost their job they may now lose their home.

And are we all proud that we live in a society that allows such things to happen?

1 Agree
Duckileaks
Duckileaks
05 Mar 2013 20:20

Neil, if you look around there are companies who have an ethical policy.  I only invest in companies that do, with help from a financial adviser who specialises in that area.  Side issue I know but wanted to say it.

 

 

back the point, sort of.  At one stage I needed the benefit system and I was bloomin' grateful for it too.  Only a few months but whilst I was unable to work due to sickness that small amount (and it wasn't much) of money coming in helped pay my bills.

thankfully I don't need it now but other members of my extended family have had to use the system and none of them are scroungers or wasters or sit on their bums all day - they are just people who need support for a while.

life can be bloody herd at time for some people, bit of compassion wouldn't go amiss

2 Agrees
HuwMatthews2
HuwMatthews2
07 Mar 2013 01:51

Interesting points coming out here.

 

It seems we all agree that Social Security should be a safety net for those who NEED it ..... rather than a way of life for those who don't?

2 Agrees
Lynne
Lynne
07 Mar 2013 07:10

Huw could you give some examples of those whom you believe to have chosen a life on benefits.  

FredBassett
FredBassett
07 Mar 2013 14:50

Lynne. Huw's comment perhaps isent 100% angled at our local population, however if you happen to have the miss-fortune to ever live amonst the inner city areas of Liverpool, Newcastle, Birmingham and Manchester you will find plenty of families living totally on benefits. Mum & Dad have never had a job, they have to breed like rabbits to maintain their benefit income, everything is provided for them i.e. Houses, furniture, free health care and in some cases brand new cars and minibuses. It really is unbelievable they even get sent to places like Dawlish Warren on free holidays all paid for by the state.

Iam not proud to admit where I was brought up, but my close neighbours had never done a days work in their lives they had eight kids and the social gave them everything. They had two authority owned houses converted into one big house, They both smoked, you could find them in the local pub most nights and they went to Spain on holiday more than once a year. The benefit system is a bloody joke!

1 Agree
Lynne
Lynne
07 Mar 2013 15:43

Don't know what it is you've been reading Fred but it certainly isn't that church report on Poverty that I've posted on another thread.

1 Agree
Duckileaks
Duckileaks
07 Mar 2013 16:55

But not all people fall into the descriptions in the Church report Lynne, surely you can see that for some being on benefits is a lifestyle choice.

I agree that most people who claim some sort of benefit are in real need but I know women who would rather have another child than get a job, if they have a steady partner frequently they don't bother to work either. 

Not all claimants are victims of their situations some do choose to live the way they do.

Brazilnut
Brazilnut
07 Mar 2013 17:07

Why would anybody choose to live at benefit level? Look at the graphs in Lynnes links

This is not about saving money its more like social cleansing

1 Agree
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