Dawlish Discussion

Whilst not in anyway condoning the violence that has taken place of late I have to say that having read about, thought about, and argued about, the system of university funding/student tuition fees which will be in place wef 2012, I am also angered. If you have, or know of, a young English person who dreams of going to university then you might be interested in what I have to say below. Apologies for its length but try as I might I couldn't make it any shorter.

I’ve heard it claimed by MPs that people don’t understand what the new university tuition fee system is all about and that consequently it is such ignorance that has caused the recent outcry and student protests. They also claim that the new system is just so much fairer than the old one. Really? Well I suppose it revolves around one’s definition of fairness and unlike MPs I believe the outrage is precisely because people know what the new system will be. It is not ignorance of the facts but knowledge of them that has made so many of us so very angry. An increase in yearly tuition fees from £3,000 to a minimum £6,000 up to a maximum of £9,000. Then there are living costs on top of all of that – students do have to eat you know, and pay rent and yes, have a social life - a coffee, even the odd drink . For a three year degree the amount of final debt is massive but for courses that last five years or more such as medicine, dentistry, veterinary surgery, architecture and similar the final debt is mind blowing - practically a mortgage! Can someone tell me why our children and grandchildren should have to pay such a price to help solve an economic mess which is nothing to do with them? Why are they being penalised in such a way when the bankers, bailed out to the tune of billions of pounds with our money, are still awarding themselves grotesque amounts in the form of bonuses? If this country should find itself short of English professional people in ten years time because they were put off from going to university due to the huge debt they would have been left with then I suggest the decision made by our MPs earlier this month may have an awful lot to do with it.

And why have I used the word English? Quite deliberately I assure you, as it is only English students who will be facing these fees. Not the Scots, the Welsh or the N. Irish just the English. Take a look at this:

TUITION FEES AROUND THE UK@ December 2010.

• Scotland: Free to Scottish and EU students, £1,820 pa to other UK (£2,895 for medicine)
• England: Max £3,290 pa, rising to maximum £9,000 in 2012
• Wales and Northern Ireland: Maximum £3,290 pa

(Source BBC News website December 2010) Note that students from EU countries study for free at Scottish Universities whereas students from England, Wales and N. Ireland do not. I believe it is the Welsh Assembly’s intention to subsidise Welsh students who study at any University in the UK, in effect freezing the cost at £3,290 instead of the maximum £9,000. Thus we will have Welsh students and English students studying the same subject at the same English university but with the Welsh students only incurring a debt of £3, 290 per year for tuition fees because of their being subsidised whilst the English, with no subsidy, get charged the full £6,000 or even £9,000. And what happens if an English student studies at a Welsh university? They will still be charged the full whack of some £6,000 - £9,000 per year for tuition fees whilst their subsidised Welsh counterparts are charged only £3,290 per year. And Scotland? Only a short time no doubt before Scotland also finds a way of charging the English students at Scottish Universities £6,000 per year minimum for tuition fees instead of the £1,820 per year it currentlydoes. And remember the Welsh students studying in Scotland won’t get charged that £6,000 fee because as I’ve explained above they will be subsidised. Please do not misunderstand me. I’m not having a ‘go’ at the Welsh and the Scots. Far from it. I greatly admire what they are doing for their home students. However, this bizarre university tuition fee situation within the UK does make me wonder if the world has gone totally mad. No wonder there is such anger and not only from our young people. Some of us golden oldies are pretty incensed as well. Why are the English being discriminated against in such a way? This coalition government of ours, you know that’s the one that governs the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, concerns itself greatly with the concept of fairness and tells us constantly that “we are all in this together”. We are told that student fees had to increase because of the national debt problem. There is no money. How else can our universities be funded? Er....that’s the United Kingdom’s national debt presumably not the English national debt. If that’s right, and it is, then why are English students being clobbered in a way that students from those other countries that make up the United Kingdom are not? It seems to me that we have a very unfair and quite disunited kingdom and it isn’t only the young people who are angry as many of my age group feel just as betrayed and outraged as our youngsters.

Thank you Lynne, I totally agree with you. I have grandchildren who work very hard at their education and are heading towards university. It does put a strain on the whole family as we all want the best for their future.

They dont have to pay any fees until they reach the end do they?

The last Government helped to get us in this mess, they had 13 years, I have no doubt people will vote Labour back in again! ..especially those aged 14 now, so should the minimum vote age be 21?

@wondering. you are correct in that they won't have to pay back any of their tuition fees until they have finished their course and not until they earn a minimum of £21,000 pa (or the inflation adjusted equivalent thereof).

But that applies to ENGLISH students only remember. The main thrust of my original posting is the inequality in the cost of a university education for students depending on which country within the United Kingdom they come from. English students will rack up by far the greatest debt. That is my point and that is what I am querying in terms of 'fairness'.

Re voting: suspect it will depend on how the next 5 years pan out as to how people (of whatever age) vote.

I agree there should be some equality in all this, but I have never been a high earner and do not see why my hard earned cash has to pay for somebody who could earn triple what I do. A lot of students choose uni for the lifestyle not for a career!!!! Paying back when they are earning over 21000!!!! quite right they have 30yrs from what Ive heard and will be written off after then what is left, sorry after those disgraceful protests have no sympathy, may be in the future students will only go to uni if it is vital to what they want to do like it was many years ago.

Thank you Lynne I see. You are right its not fair what they are doing. Should be the same regardless where you are, perhaps Europe will put us straight!

@PJD

If you agree that "there should be some equality in all this" do you accept that it is unfair that an English student will have far more to pay back then, say, a Scot or a Welsh student in terms of tuition fees?

Whilst I would love for university educaiton to be free of charge as it presently is in Scotland (but for Scottish and EU students only though), I recognise that it is probably necessary for there to be a contribution. However, how much that contribution should be and that it should be the same, I think, througout the UK, is what concerns me.

"A lot of students chose uni for a lifestyle not a career" - What lifestyle would that be then? And on what do you base that assertion?

Are the fees not repayable only after completion and when the students are in employment over a certain salery and its repaid interest free through taxation of the individual according to salery?

Where as apprentices or trainees (when our youngsters are lucky enough to get something) have to put up with below national wage, pay for thier own tools, books, stationary and other things to gain a thier proffession. OK its not 9k a year, but some would say, why should they pay for some one to learn to earn 60k plus, when no one assists others learn to earn 15k.

Should they pay for someone to learn "Media studies" or "Tourism studies"?

Exactly Lazlo that was what I was trying to say, similar feelings in Fridays Herald Express letters page

@lazlo woodbine: yes fees are repayable after completion of degree and when graduates are earning more than £21k pa (and if you look at the earlier posts you will see this ground has already been covered). interest will be charged.

Agree that it is deplorable that those who seek apprenticeship/traineeships should be paid so badly. Also think that help should be forthcoming for books, tools, etc. Indeed for those who came from lower income families financial help was available via the Educational Maintenance Grant but this has now been abolished - so not sure that apprentices/trainees will get any financial help anymore. I have previously posted info about the abolishing of the EMA on another thread.

For what it is worth I care as much about those who wish to pursue vocational courses being able to do them as I do those wishing to do degrees.

Those who have served apprenticeships can often easily earn far more than those who have taken degrees. My nephew who is an electrician earns circa £35k - whilst his aunt who is a graduate has never earnt anywhere near that in her life.

Tourism studies might be very useful in such places as Devon given that is what a lot of the economy is based on. ........

But you seem to be ignoring the point I was making in my original post which is that it is only English students who will be subject to the new tuition fees wef 2012 and not Scots, Welsh, or N. Irish ones.

I know people whose politics are easily to the Right of mine but who, with regard to the issue of the unfairness of the tuition fees charged within UK, totally agree with the point I keep trying to get over which is that it is totally unfair that it is only English students who will be charged them.

These links may be of interest.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/8171825/Higher-tuition-fees-but-only-if-you-are-English.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1325364/Scotland-raise-tuition-fees-English-undergraduates.html

Any student that has the full debt of £9,000, once earning £500 a week will be paying back £8.45 per week.

But it won't be a debt of £9,000, will it? It will be more than that.

Minimum of £6,000 pa for tuition fees x 3 years plus student loans and various other debts accrued

up to

£9,000 pa for tuition fees x 5 years or possibly longer plus student loans plus various other debts accrued.

But this is for English students only remember as Scottish students pay no tuition fees and Welsh (and N. Irish as well I believe) will be subsidised.

Perhaps some of you think these differences in the cost of going to university within the UK is fair. The point I am trying to get across is that I do not and nor do many others.

So, as the 'fairness' of the above is something I'm obviously missing perhaps someone could explain why they think otherwise.

So we must feel sorry for those students who have to pay a couple of quid a week for the rest of thier lives to repay the education they recieved if they get a job earning more than an electrician, who would have to work about 60 hours a week to earn the 35 k? Try telling the my 22 yr old neighbour who spent hundreds of pounds buying tools, books and stationary while learning to become an HGV mechanic only to be layed off at the end of his apprenticeship, then spent another two thousand pounds learning to drive the vehicles that he learnt to repair, and had to repay at bank interest rates as no subsidesed loan was avaible. He and his out of work friends didnt destroy the centre of a town in protest.

Why is it that the majority of the country should pay for the extended university education of the minorty, when others must pay for thier own extended vocational education. Is not an HGV driver as much needed as a Doctort, is an electrician as much needed as a Lawyer ?.

Surely if one person learning gets it for free then so should everyone. Or rather if one person has to pay for thier vocational education so should the rest and that as many think, includes students at universites.

While the difference between the Scottish system is also on debate, why should Scotish MPs like Mr Kennedy who voted against the extended fees be allowed to vote on English matters, yet English MPs are not allowed to vote on Scottish matters. Had none English MPs not been allowed to vote the majority of the votes would have been greater in favour of extended fees.

It seemed hard for me to understand, while watching the news on TV of the violence and destruction in London by those protesting about fees, that they will only have to pay back when they have a job, it was followed by the news of another youngster, about the same age as the protesters, in a hirse in Wooten Bassett. Need I say more.

@Lynne

I think on this subject if you asked the whole country your opinions would be in the minority, I am fed up to my back teeth with all the whinging from people who think they deserve me to keep them. Ive never had anybody keep me Ive had to get off my backside and do everything for myself and perhaps now with the ways things are the tide is turning

@lazlo woodbine

1. It will be more than a couple of quid per week.

2. Can't speak for other electricians but my nephew doesn't work 60hours a week for his £35K pa.

3. Absolutely feel for your neighbour. I also know of people who have spent hundreds on tools, etc whilst doing apprenticeships only to be laid off once qualified. My brother-in-law also spent a large sum, after he had been made redundant, on training to be an hgv driver. He took the test twice, failed twice. Waste of money that he didn't really have to spend in the first place. And yes, like your neighbours and many more like them he also didn't take to the streets to protest. And if you are saying that having spent all that money it isn't right what then happened I totally agree with you. So, if you and your neighbours and the likes of my brother-in-law aren't happy with what happened to them what did they do about it? What are they doing about it?

4. As I have said before, in my comments about the Education Maintenance Allowance, I believe that finance should be available to help ALL students whatever their course of study.

5. Of course an HGV driver is needed as much as a doctor and an electrician as much as a lawyer. The point I have been trying to make is that given the new system of funding universities for ENGLISH STUDENTS ONLY I think the number of English doctors, lawyers, engineers etc will fall. See my original posting.

6. Yes it is very, very, sad to see those tv pictures of the funeral processions in Wootton Basset.

7. In your posting above you have given examples of unfairness. Do you therefore also agree that the differences between the amount of debt an English student will accrue compared to that of a Welsh, Scottish or N. Irish student is also very unfair. Is it fair for example that an English student studying medicine could end up with a tuition fee debt alone of £45,000 whilst her counterpart in Scotland will end up with a tuition fee debt of er.......nil.

8. Almost forgot......Scottish/Welsh/Irish MPs voting on English issues. Yep,totally agree. Just why is it that the English don't have a parliament but all the other countries do? Perhaps that's another thread/debate that could be started.

@PJD

Take it then that you don't use and have never used the NHS?

Take it then that you didn't go to school?

Take it then that you don't think we should have a police force?

And the armed services.....

You see you are, and have been, kept by others all of whom are paid for by.........public money.

And as I have said before, on the issue of English students being expected to pay far more than Welsh, Scottish and N. Irish ones, I know that there are those whose politics in virtually every other way couldn't be more different from mine but who on this issue totally agree with me that this really is quite unfair on English students.

Now, whether students should pay towards their university education and if so, how much etc etc is another debate, albeit a not unrelated one. But that isn't what I am arguing about.

Now then.. I reckon as the northern part of the UK has never been known for being that bright, maybe thats why they dont get charged. I have never known any brilliance to come out of Wales..well yes there is Tom Jones and Harry Secombe, as for Scotland I think of Billy Connolly and Gordon Brown sat with an empty bottle of whisky! Its time all paid regardeless where you live but I do doubt if them up there would want to!

Now cheer up and lets have some positive postings in 2011 please!

By the way Lynne did Tesco win? ..sorry the thread gone a bit off track lol.

Im off to Asda for some cakes!!!!!!!

yes I use the NHS and have use of the services but for the last 45yrs Ive paid my NI without a break also rates, poll tax and council tax, if I needed money had to work for it or get a loan and REPAY myself, thats my argument, so Ive paid and paid like millions of others but do not go on violent protests, or sit on benefits, and expect other people to keep me and by the way Im on minimum wage!!!!!!

I left school at 15 and wanted to go College but as I was the eldest of 4 was told sorry you will have to work we cant afford to send you to College, but I did it the other way work get the experience and night school, sorry Lynne wont convince me into thinking different, know students who have chosen uni for the way of life, thats what theyve told me and when they finish will most prob end up working for min wage with a useless degree, genuine students will still carryon in their chosen profession and repay their debt to society by what they have achieved.

As wondering said Happy New Year and agree to disagree

No student will have to payback a penny until they are earning 21k per annum. Seems very sensible to me.

Lynne

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markeaston/quiz2010.pdf

Q1

Apologies, it is £8.65 per week for the whole debt when earning £500 per week. Not bad...

What bit of the issue I have tried bringing to your attention - namely the inequality of the amount of tuition fees to be charged to a student depending on which country within the UK s/he comes from - is it that you don't grasp?

The amount you quote above may be what it is anticipated will get paid back by an English student - but a Scottish student would have no tuition fees at all to pay back and a Welsh and a N. Irish student far less than the English.

I am not posting anymore on this matter. And that's not a hissy fit. Just me thinking that if you still haven't got the point I'm making then there is no point in my continuing to post.

Actually, here is my final posting. Thought I'd give you this link just in case you would like to have more idea of the repayment issue (but which will apply to English students only remember).

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/article-1328298/Graduate-debt-trap-Students-paying-loans-children-university.html

just an afterthought Lynne, maybe its because we accept there are inequalaties in all walks of life