Dawlish Discussion

Dawlish station is now OPEN. I spoke to Mr Chorley from FGW. Station was closed for safety checks on the Canopy. They are now satisfied there is no damage, and the station is re-open. Disruption to Dawlish passengers, but no effect on the wider service as trains continued to run through all day. Important we make that clear otherwise people will claim this as evidence for Dawlish line to be removed inland.

So we are 'painting the roses red' again and the winter weather has only just started.  Can we please stop playing beggar thy neighbour.

The plain fact of the matter is that short of building up the beach with enough defences to push the shoreline well away from the wall this line is not fit for purpose as a 21st century mainline, nor is it able to be electrified.

Please also note my careful use of the word mainline.  i.e. It is perfectly good enough as a feeder/stopping service, as is.  An avoiding line is ADDITIONAL not instead of.  Unless of course you suggesting that politicians are not to be trusted and would try to then cut the seawall line, on the sly, later on. -Surely not!! 

No Clive, this isn't painting the roses red.  This is just baseless scaremongering by the Plymouth mob. Aided and abetted by a frenzied and ill-informed media. 

I'm more upset by seeing the damage that Mother Nature has just wreaked upon Torcross / Slapton Sands on the South Hams. Far worse than just a couple of bricks coming loose on our seawall. But there again, I've no selfish agenda...

Clive

I appreciate that you are not a local person and won't be aware that the perfectly normal seasonal disruption that has caused problems on railway lines across the UK this week has been played up by some as proof positive of a need for a new line avoiding Dawlish.

 It's no basis for an informed debate on how we use limited infrastructure budgets to best effect.

It's going to get very boring if the BBC roll this story out every time there is a bit of rough weather.

@ Well said Michael. @Well said Judith to both posts. As Colin Marsden said tonight the work that NR have done stopped It from getting worse. And Dawlish Station was closed because of a crack was found, checks were made. But these XC Voyagers cannot run through Dawlish In this weather.  Good old HST can at a reduced speed.     

And there you have it, 'the Plymouth Mob'. Beggar thy neighbour.  Here we go again united you stand, divided you fall, and no proper solution will ever happen that way .  I am not talking about or backing silly press reporting.  I am taking a strategic long term view for the region as a whole. 

With infighting between regions and towns it is no wonder you still have a 'mainline' between Exeter and Plymouth that was sub-standard in 1846, was supposed to be up-graded in 1939 and is still not fit for purpose as a 21st century mainline railway all these years later.  This 52miles was built on the cheap.  Brunel was given inadequate funds, end of.  e.g. It has ridiculous 1 in 37 gradients either side of Dainton.  The only way that the mainline to Penzance can ever be properly brought up to a respectable and reliable standard is to electrify it and run pendolinos.  I would challenge anyone reading this to take the 16.00 Euston to Glasgow and then make the case for that not being what is needed as the well informed solution that the SW deserves.   

So to this end I stand 100% behind my perfectly factually correct comments that either:

A) Build up the sea defences properly to push the sea well back from the line or

B) Build a 1939 style ADDITIONAL DAL line.

To be in denial that one of these solutions is required to back the future prosperity of the SW is to 'paint the roses red'.

As for the money, well at least just be honest with the electorate and say that the SW doesn't have a deserving enough case for infrastructure investment, if that is the 'informed conclusion'.  But please don't take rail pasengers for fools and pretend that you have a perfectly good enough and reliable mainline as it is.  I use it often enough to know perfectly well from first hand experiences that it isn't and that is by no means just me saying so.  As for the good old HSTs - I saw the first test trains in 1979 and was delighted.  But that was 35years ago.  And how any times have folk upgraded their cars since then I wonder?

It would be interesting to know how much faster the train journey to Plymouth would be if electrification was brought in?  

I ask because the other benefits of moving the line seem unproven against the alternative of spending less money to improve the protection of the existing line against long term rising sea levels.

We can only spend the money once, and there seem to be so many other candidates for spending.   Just a few come readily to mind

* Improving flood protection across Somerset

* Dualling the A303

* Improving traffic flow into Exeter at Countess Wear

It's interesting to add National Rail Enquiries to the twitter sites you follow.  It brings home just how massive is the list of daily problems on railway lines across the country.  Improving the security of the existing network is also a strong candidate for expenditure.

And that is just some thoughts within the traffic sector.  What about the wider public purse?

For example, the Labour govt jump started the hospital building programme through PFI schemes that are coming towards maturity.  Resolving these to keep the hospitals in the public sector is going to be very expensive.

So, how much faster would electrification make the journey to Plymouth?

To Plymouth 30minutes less, but even more importantly, reliably so. Plus quite possibly an hour off Penzance.

Again, not 'moving the line' but an additional line.  If properly defending the existing line can be done at a fraction of the cost then good, no probems with that.

An additional line only saves 5mins so not bothered, as the real time saving to Plymouth (not forgetting Cornwall) is from Electrification.

And on that score we are shamefully behind all other developed European countries.

Like Clive, I use the train to travel to London nearly every week and know how we lag behind in terms of investment; he really does make valid points. We need serious investment in SW transport and intelligent solutions. To pretend we can keep things as they are is a nonsense and an insular view. Investment both in strengthening the sea defences and in a viable alternative line for the occasions when it is needed is essential. 

Safeguarding our sea defences is one cost.  Maintaining a railway running across the top is far more expensive.  

We kid ourselves if we imagine the route through Dawlish will survive if an alternative route between Exeter and Newton Abbot is opened.  I wouldn't believe any politician who promised this when other demands on the Transport budget are bring made by vastly greater population areas.

So, is it that we are selfish in wanting to save Dawlish?  Or is it legitimate to ask whether saving time on the journey by electrification  warrants our sacrifice?

I having been asking for some time for statistics on how much time is caused in delays to travel from London by problems in Cornwall, Berkshire and Somerset?  How does this compare to time lost travelling between Newton Abbot and Exeter?  This seems to me to be a key piece of evidence if the decision is to be made on the grounds of reliable service.

Two arguments are confused here, speeding journey times and the need for electrification. 

Brunel's route took the railway westwards to link centres of population, Exeter, Dawlish, Teignmouth, Newton Abbot, Totnes and Plymouth, with a branch to Paignton and Torbay.  Today that route serves a commuting function to the larger centres of employment and education.  Long distance travellers have the same route which winds around hills and valleys and up and down challenging gradients.  A pendolino may make it faster on the existing route but the track will have to be re-engineered.  The only significant speed increase within Devon and Cornwall will be a completely new route that cuts through the centre of the counties with new emabnkments and bridges on the scale of the new French routes that are being built to link Brittany to Paris. The cost will be enormous, but new construction will allow electrification so that second-hand rolling stock can once again be passed on to West Country travellers.

The real challenge is to improve journey times in a rational way to the benefit of the greater part of the travelling public, and that is between the Midlands,  London and Exeter.  Raised embankments, re-engineering of river crossings and road bridges, etc, and electrification may help if it can be afforded.

Some re-engineering of the rolling stock that can not survive the occasional drenching (Virgin/cross-country stuff) with sea water will help, or they could go back to steam traction. That worked without blowing fuses.

I wonder how many people vehemently demanding this cross country alternative line are also vehemently against the compulsory purchase of Farmer Weekes' tiny parcel of land? Or are vehemently against homes being built on other farmers land?

@Michael Clayson, I would be careful what you wish for re statistics, you may be very surprised at the answers.

As someone who regularly travels on the train, London, twice to Bristol, Taunton, Cheltenham Spa and Exeter, all in the last 10 working days, I can say that services beyond Exeter towards Plymouth and Cornwall  leave a lot to be desired. We truly are the Cinderella service in the SW.

Thank you Margaret, always useful to hear of personal experience.

Your observation that we are already a Cinderella service reinforces my concern that a local service to Dawlish would not survive the creation of an "additional" line to Newton Abbot.

I still think we should ensure that all decisions are evidence based, and it will be interesting to know if weather related speed restrictions on the short distance between Teignmouth and Exeter really outweigh the problems that occur on the entire distance between Exeter and London.

I can honestly say Michael that before the refurbishment of Reading station started there were very few delays between London and Exeter. Over the last 12 months delays have occurred on occasions between London and Reading due to the on - going work, but once the refurbishment is completed and there is greater capacity through the station then the normal excellent service will resume. In deed, in recent months there have not been any delays between London and Reading or Exeter on the numerous occasions I have travelled. The problems occur when you get down to our end. Often people travelling into Cornwall have to change at Plymouth and connecting times do not make for speedy journeys. More worrying though is the feedback from passengers travelling between London and Plymouth during the time Dawlish was closed. Many reported that by getting on a coach at Tiverton their journey time was reduced when compared to staying on the train. This was widely reported in the press at the time.

So Margaret, are you advocating building a new line avoiding Dawlish?

What I think would be a good solution Michael is to keep our line as the main route into Cornwall but to have an avoiding line between Exeter and Newton Abbot for the occasions the main route is inaccessible. 

The new main line has to be for fast direct and Dawlish for the branch stopping trains.

There would then not be anymore delays for the stopping train and waiting at the Warren for fast traisn to pass for 5 minutes . Makes sense.

Interesting Margaret,

I don't understand, how this is cost effective.  

You go to all the trouble and  massive expense of building a new line and then mothball it for the few days per year that the Dawlish line is inaccessible.  

You employ people to carry out all the necessary regular checks and maintenance so that at short notice you can throw the line in to operation and transport thousands of people across it at high speed.

you continue to transport people across the slower line that you maintain at huge cost just to service a population of 25,000 people and two small seaside resorts.

And this is preferable to saying "Stuff it, we've built a new line - why not use it 365 days per year"

Sorry wondering, but a branch line just to service Starcross, The Warren, Dawlish and Teignmouth wouldn't make economic sense.  It costs a small fortune to run a railway line across the top of the sea wall.  No government would commit to this just to serve a population of 25,000 and two small resorts.

Wondering makes a very good point about capacity on the Dawlish line. Not only do stopping trains get delayed by expresses but this also happens vica versa. Both lines are needed to truely solve capacity issues.
Dawlish could then also have a more regular and reliable service, ditto Torby.

(N.B. The new line would alway carry the expresses.)

Both lines is best but if unaffordable (it was affordable in 1939, but then again property prices have rocketed) then at least back proper sea defences.

Another waste of time on HSTs is that they are stationary for up to 3mins at most stations due to the rediculous palava of having old fashioned slam doors.

This is what we want! http://bbc.in/1H1bmt9

Let's face it folks, none of us are experts and that includes you Michael. You say the line would be used for a few days a year, it would have been used for two months this year! But actually I am being a bit more imaginative than that. The Exeter to NA avoiding line would, in my mind, be the equivalent of a branch line so not needing the expense of building a high speed line. Sorry Clive! With reaseach it may be that stations along the line would reduce car traffic into Exeter, who knows? It all needs looking at objectively, and hopefully that is what is happening, but that rules out most of us on this forum. 

Actually Clive, that waiting period at DW pays off sometimes. I frequently travel to London leaving Dawlish on the 07.30 CrossCountry Paignton to Manchester service. However, that particular service is often cancelled. As soon as I get up I check to see if it is running, when I find it has been cancelled I contact the taxi service and have them pick me up 10 minutes earlier so I can get the waiting train at DW, which still enables me to make my London connection at Exeter. I would not like to lose the high speed trains from our line as travelling to London and going North would not be as easy as it is now. 

Now I'm definitely not an expert on railways myself, however I didn't realise that like myself Margaret is also a frequent traveller to London - she should have mentioned it before - and I can honestly say that my most recent journies there have only been blighted by signal problems at Frome last time, and then getting stuck behind a slow local train even further upcountry. The FGW 6:21 that I catch has never been cancelled or late on the many many times that I've needed to catch it. 

Anyway, I'm not sure how having a DAL that rips up swathes of our countryside, but isn't capable of carrying HSTs, is going to appease the Plymouth mob. Like I say though, I'm not an expert in this particular subject, so I look forward to an explanation of the benefits of this potential solution to what some people believe is a problem. 

I think most of us would resist making long term decisions on the basis of what happened this year.  It was by any means exceptional.

Margaret, you referred earlier to an additional line for when the Dawlish route is inaccessible.  Now you change it to a branch line for local traffic into Exeter.  I still see that as too tempting as an alternative to maintaining services along the sea wall.

if you still want London services passing through Dawlish, why not keep our one line and maximise the sea defences with a reef ?  Cheaper and maximum benefit to the Dawlish economy

Mrs C, if you were travelling through Frome then you were on the slow train to London, which goes via Bristol and one which I cannot comment on with authority. The times I used the slow train, 08.20 from Dawlish, until about February this this year, there were never any problems with signalling. Like I said earlier, the Plymouth mob, as you like to call them, are happier getting on a coach at Tiverton as that makes for a quicker journey for them! 

Nope Margaret I get off the 06:21 at St David's, grab a coffee and get the next train which stops only at Taunton and Reading. Like I said, the last two journies London bound were affected by signalling and slow local trains. 

Exceptional! We are at the start of the winter and look at what we have endured this week! Get real! 

Michael, I am happy for the sea defences to be strengthened, as I said in an earlier post, but there should always be an alternative so when our line is closed, for whatever reason, passengers can still continue with their journeys. I will fight to keep our line as the main route as, let's face it, as a professional working woman I have a vested interest but we have to have back - up solutions otherwise we will lose our line. 

Perhaps this is a good point to conclude our interesting discussion.

Goodnight Margaret

I agree. It really is only those of us who commute daily to Exeter, London or the North that can speak with real knowledge on this issue. 

Mrs C, if you travelled through Frome, which is an off-shoot from the main line, then you would have been on a slightly slower train than those that go directly to London Paddington. This could account for the signalling problems on the local line as opposed to the main line.

I'm not sure why I should have mentioned I was a frequent traveller to London earlier, although this is common knowledge amongst those who know me well.

I have not said the 06.21 has been cancelled; I said the 07.30 Paignton to Manchester train from Dawlish is frequently cancelled, and more recently, due to the stormy weather, the 10.36 Paignton to Manchester train has started at Exeter, which is not in the least helpful for those passengers due to join the train anywhere between Paignton and Exeter.

I know which train I was on lol! It was the on-board train manager who announced that we had slowed down and then stopped due to signalling problems at Frome. 

I was merely sharing my experiences, I never said that you said that the 06:21 had been cancelled. 

Are the cancelled trains Crosscountry ones by any chance? The ones that can't cope with water?

JC Shut up .  PLEASE,

Mrs C, go look at the FGW rail map, PLEASE! And then you might get some idea of what I am talking about. 

Pete (Onaport, etc) - I'll shut up when I decide to, not when you say so. 

Margaret, I'm only going by the announcement made on the train!! I know what you're talking about and I know what I'm talking about. 

Margaret, I've looked at a PDF of the FGW route map, and it does indeed show that the train I was on goes past Frome (I never said "through Frome") and would have been affected by signalling problems there. Thanks, I didn't think I misheard. 

https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/-/media/PDF/Routemaps/network-map.pdf

Ahhhh! This is painful! 

Mrs C, you would only have been affected by signalling problems at Frome if you had been on the off-shoot line which goes through Frome. Some FGW services do go by that route but most don't. I know, because I have travelled both routes. 

I must say that people come on here, and some of them make valid points. The sea wall should be made resilant  to winter weather and In my own opinion, stress my own opinion, It should be made higher. The MP  for Newton Abbot went on FB and said  It had coped well during those rough seas. Immediately, the Plymouth Mob reported In local newspapers that trains were cancelled between Exeter St.Davids and NA. Wrong, only the notorious Voyagers(XC) were. HST`S(FGW) were not.    In February this year she said we need breakwaters and I agree with her and Michael Clayson. The Liberal Party candidate for next years general election Is now saying exactly the same. Incidentally As far as know the 6.21am to LP has not been cancelled. I certainly cannot remember when the last time that was.  Anyway, If anyone wants to get on a train and wants to know If Its late or not, RTT(Real Time Times) Is an excellent website for that. I read your comments with Interest and Its December 3rd. 2014 that the Autumn statement Is announced.

We do all agree that maximum resilience proofing of the current line is essential.  

Points of discussion seem to have been:

If the line is made more resilient, is there still a case for a second line?  Given the Uk wide need for investment in transport, is a doubling of the line the best way of spending limited budgets?

Normal winter conditions cause problems for voyager trains.  Would this still be a problem if the line is made more resilient?  Would it be cheaper to buy new trains than build and maintain a second line?

Is there a way to build a second line that reaches more communities, could this reduce road traffic?

If a second line is built, how confident can we be that money will still be found every year to keep running the Dawlish line along the top of the sea wall.  Will the temptation be irresistible to save this cost by relying solely on the cheaper inland route?

Regardless of the implications for Dawlish.  Is there an economic imperative for the region to build faster / stronger routes west of Exeter?  

I may not use the train every day, but as a UK citizen I do feel We all have a right to ask questions and express opinions.   

Margaret, for the last time, I was merely repeating what the Train Manager said! Do they not have signals at the 'junction' with this offshoot line that you're obsessed with? 

I'm really not sure why you were focussing on this minor point late last night. The overall point that I was making, and which you ignored, was that trains to/from Penzance are affected by infrastructure issues everywhere in this country and that this can be exacerbated by trains (i.e. your Crosscountry trains) not being fit for purpose. 

I don't own any CrossCountry trains. 

Hahaha. That's really funny. It really is. 

Well you will be pleased to read this news...seems there will be no need to 'bicker' about which way the line will go around/avoid Dawlish .. Just keep the wall up!

Okehampton - Plymouth line should never have closed..

http://www.okehampton-today.co.uk/news.cfm?id=14650

Actually, our line has been operating for donkeys years, including times when numerous branch lines were in existence in Devon. The big mistake by Dr Beeching was closing so many of those branch lines, but evidence has shown that this was all politically motivated by greed. To have a DAL as a back up in times of emergency is an intelligent solution and those who are scaremongoring need to do a bit more reaseach into what has worked in the past.

You don't own a line...

Seriously though, you're right about Beeching's motives. However the only people scaremongering, in my opinion, are those who suggest that the Dawlish seawall is on the verge of collapse again.

If a DAL is built, in my opinion again it wouldn't be a branch line it would be built, because of the inherent costs involved, to serve the HSTs, and I believe that the current Dawlish line would be sacrificed at it's altar. Obviously I hope that I'm wrong about this should the finances be found for a DAL. 

No-one else has yet passed comment on the ecological impact of a DAL. Plenty moan about new houses being built on farmland, but what amount of land would have to be built upon in order to accommodate a DAL?

I don't think it fair to accuse people asking quite fundamental questions of being scaremongering.

Nor would I suggest those who don't share concern are sticking their head in the sand.

It is a key issue for the future of our town.  We can only hope to see a clear decision on December 3rd.  I'd  want to see this backed up with guaranteed money - just in case it is blank cheques being written 5 months before a finely balanced election.

Well said Michael. 

Frome is on the fast and direct line into Paddington, between Castle Cary and Westbury.  I know because my mother-in-law lives there and the map doesn't lie. 

Frome is on an off-shoot line, it is not on the normal route into Paddington from Dawlish.

Are you saying Castle Cary to Westbury is not the main line into Paddington?  If so what in your opinion is?   Frome is quite clearly not on a branch line. 

@Burnside. You are correct In what you say. Trains go from Weymouth to Bristol Temple Meads via Westbury stopping at Frome,as well as other stations, along the way.    

The debate was not about Weymouth to Bristol, it was about whether you pass through Frome from Exeter to Paddington.   You do. 

Oh don't worry Emopitt, normal people know what the normal route into Paddington is.   These folk are queer. 

This map clearly shows that Frome is on the off-shoot line.  Satisfied now?

https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Your-journey/Route-Maps/Regional-route-map

@Emopitt. The trains stop at Frome, I  was not doubting you on that but only 2 trains on m-f goes direct from frome to LP, 1 on saturday.  @Dorian. Daft and stupid I might be but not queer. Definately not that.                                                                                             

That blasted Train Manager has a lot to answer for!  

Let's face it, the only reasons that Margaret was questioning me more and more insistently regarding Frome was because it was me, because it was getting later and later at night, and because she didn't believe that I was a frequent traveller to London who had encountered signalling problems enroute. 

ALL CHANGE!

I feel stupid, I thought it was a debate about whether Bristol or Castle Cary was the main line but now I realise I stumbled into gang warfare.  I'm outta here! 

Mrs C you really do talk the biggest load of rubbish and what a hugely inflated ego you have! I respond to posts if I think I have anything to add. By and large I do my best to ignore yours.

Garry glitter.... Oh dear me.

Margaret,  I've yet to see you add anything except conflict with JC.  Is it possible you have a rather deluded sense of your own superiority, 'imagination' and popularity?    

Not at all Dorian. But I can see that some of your comments above leave a lot to be desired. No doubt you and Mrs C are very good friends.

OMG I have never had a stalker before! Why would Mrs C keep all this information on me. I find this truly weird!

Dorian and I are definitely besties aren't we Dorian? x

However we're not family members pretending not to be...

You could almost believe Dorian and Mrs C are one and the same.  It's uncanny.

Burneside. You've sussed us out!  Not to mention MJRPC too. And everyone else who disagrees with your familial bullying. 

Is this the point in proceedings where Elvis pops by to say that he's just popping by and sees that nothing's changed?

I still find it weird Mrs C. Get a life, I have! 

You find it weird that I'm able to answer back to you?  You're clearly used to people being cowed by the bullying name-calling by you and your family . It doesn't work with me thankfully...

I rest my case.

You keep bandying about the name-calling accusation but are totally unable to substantiate it, apart two examples you dredged up the other day, which were actually statements of fact.

Margaret, what case is that?

Burneside, the evidence for your familial bullying is there for all to see. 

That's the point though, where is the evidence?

Burneside, you're not likely to see it if you don't realise you're doing it. QED. 

That you really are a weirdo! I'd be very interested to see what you can pull up to substantiate your accsation of MY bullying. Only weak people bully others, as you well know. 

What a cop-out, Mrs C, you are truly pathetic, full of hot air and nothing else.

Name calling? Yet again, Burneside?

What's the phrase?  Oh yes. "I rest my case". 

Just stating the blindingly obvious, Mrs C.

I refer you to my post at 22:13. 

I'm sure that Dorian would do too...

Ah yes, Dorian, the one who makes comments that could be interpreted as homophobic, that didn't go unnoticed.

Ha ha, there's nowt so queer as folk like you.   Sorry to everyone else for throwing a sausage at the starving Rottweilers.

Meanwhile shall we carry on with Margaret's self described 'imaginative' idea to build a multi million pound DAL for Christmas and special occasions?   Genius.  

You might be laughing Dorian, but it did get reported to the webmaster.  I am watching you closely.

I am laughing because the more you two post the more you make a laughing stock of yourselves.   Now shall we get back to DAL or do you prefer to sit up all night keeping watch?

Unless it has already been mentioned but if my memory serves me electricity and water coming over the track don't mix

scarry ! Whilst on the subject of railway lines someone must have noticed on the last two nights of regional news the mention of

the opening of the inland route around Tavistock. Trust our Prime Minister think not?

Watch 'The Polotics Show' BBC1 1130am this Sunday line is to be discussed.

@Wondering. That means that the you know who will be appearing, again. and Wondering, its politics.  

I have no clue who is on, was just mentioned at 11am, so dont assune things and don't watch if you have no interest.

Why is everyone on here just so 'nasty' to everyone?

I watched it, nothing new

@Roberta. Totally agree. @Webmaster, my capitals have dissappeared again.

Wondering - Stephen meant to type "you-know-who". I.e with the quotation marks. He/she wasn't suggesting that you had inside knowledge as to who was appearing. Though I can understand why you might have thought so. 

@ Judith. Thanks for correcting me.  

No problem Stephen. 

Thanks Judith.

I see Torquay Herald re the line..

http://www.torquayheraldexpress.co.uk/Boycott-Dawlish-rail-line-campaign-launched/story-24517436-detail/story.html

Trains were stopped this morning on the line from Neeton Abbot to Exeter

The explanation being given by FGW was

Leaves on the line

 Nuff said .........

Oh look ...what George Osborne has to say about Dawlish.

http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/South-West-8220-dependent-Dawlish-rail-route-says/story-24562434-detail/story.html

I doubt that the Plymouth mob will make reference to today's temporary line closure! It doesn't fit their agenda. 

Please note that as a matter of fact Plymouth station is the highest revenue earner west of Dawlish and is the highest inland revenue raiser. 

QED you probably would have lost your line years ago without them. And you certainly wouldn't have got it re-built in double quick time last spring.

The highest revenue earner, despite the "vulnerable Dawlish line" as you lot keep parroting?

Ref. the Frome debate - There is a particular irony to all the heated comments on this one.

The history of Frome's current topology is that in 1933 a by-pass route was constructed by the GWR enabling through traffic to speed up by avoiding Frome Station.

The Frome loop then being reduced by Beeching to a meagre single track in the 1960s.  Despite its 26000 populaton Frome is now left with little more than a skeleton service and no eastbound service between 4.30pm and 7pm!!!

The GWR, as we all know by now, was only 'stopped in its tracks' (pardon the pun) from doing the same by-pass concept 'upgrade' at Dawlish by Hitler.

Apart from playing 'Queen Canute' what is your solution JC?  Carry on 'as is' and stiffle the economy of the SW?

My only wish is to have a robust line capable of being electrified.

Am perfectly happy to see that happen through a very serious upgrade of the wall.  

Thank you Clive for reinforcing the point that the economics of maintaining a line through Dawlish are dependent on it being the route to Plymouth.

Once there is an "alternative" route that case begins to fall apart, and the bean counters will soon begin to press for abandonment of the expensive option of maintaining a railway line on top of a sea wall.

Oh that is depressing, are we subscribing to a reality where the Beeching theory remains alive and well that 'duplicate lines' should be discontinued ..... so best not tempt fate ..... 

To clarify, the economics of maintaining a sole line through Dawlish rest not on it being ring fenced as 'the route' to Plymouth, but on it being one fit for the 21st century, robust to climate destabilisation and capable of being electrified.   That is the wining formula.

If we have all that Clive, why waste money on an alternative line?

We live in a country where the government is cutting public expenditure at an alarming rate, with key services being decimated.  I'm sure the bean counters and doctor beechings won't struggle to be heard.

@Margaret - Signalling problems can affect trains over a very wide area, far beyond their epi-centre.   In future, it is possible that problems as far as Cornwall could be blamed on issues at DIDCOT!!!

When current modernisation is complete that is where the nearest signal box will be (preservation lines excepted). 

@wondering - the real crime with closing meldon to bere alston was the council's failure to secure the formation of this mainline route.  then just to top it all, they saw fit to build their offices right on top of it in tavistock.

@wondering -  i do hope the council have the basic common sense not to further worsen their record of shortsightedness by the proposed bere alston to tavistock line also having approved houses or other build environment located right behind the new buffers and so preventing future extensions.  

@JC - It does not follow that 'highest revenue' is anything like as high as it could or should be.

@michaelclayson:

1. Exactly so, provided it actually happens to the existing line, in its entirety, including electrification.

2. At a time of supposedly cutting carbon emissions it seems odd that finding money for the A303 is less questioned than for railways?

3. Spend on railways is vital to boosting growth in the economy, so there is a payback to be had.

4. Whilst 'save the Dawlish Line' is doubtless a vote winner in Dawlish, I would love to hear more on solutions that include the rest of Devon and Cornwall receiving due consideration.

It's not about vote winning, it's about wanting to spend however many years I have left in a town I love, knowing it has a viable future.

my point all along has been that with the right investment  the beautiful Dawlish line can deliver for the far south west. Without a second line.

I can't see anything that reassures me that  any government will want to pay for two lines long term, a choice will have to be made.  I don't ever apologise for choosing my town

Because of the waves hitting the trains and settling on the track, surely to electrify the line would be pointless, because it will always need to have speed restrictions so you could never make faster journeys even if the most superdupa trains.    I cant see any further spend on the line happening

End of the day.. the line just happens to go through Dawlish.  I heard recently people around Chudleigh would be more than happy to have a train go through there again.. and why not?.

Plymouth has a population of quarter of a million...as rude as some people are towards people living there, you cant ignore that figure.

.

@JC - Nope, Plymouth is not in my travel plan at all if I can help it. Preferred/fastest route for me is A303-A30 direct to Cornwall.

In fact selfishly Clive would greatly benefit from A303 upgrading.  However, would hate to see Blackdown hills desecrated .  Nevertheless, I do support a 2.5mile tunnel under Stonehenge + Winterbourne Stoke by-pass to give logical clear run to A36.

@wondering - it is perfectly technically possible to push the waterfront away from the line - spend permitting!!

Beach would look somewhat different though

Think Dutch - problem solved.  Can then electrify.

Chudleigh - am sure they too would love their station back - so too would most of north Devon and Cornwall !!!  But it is not the correct strategic solution

@ MC - On the premise that any g'ovt will not keep two lines (and am not in denial of that as a possible ignorant planning outcome) then major sea defences is the only solution that delivers for the far SW on existing alignment.