General Discussion

A questionable butterfly

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majorp
majorp
14 Jun 2018 12:48

LOSS OF GREEN AREAS INCREASES BY 58 PER CENT, CPRE SAYS
Analysis by the Campaign to Protect Rural England (CPRE) has suggested that the amount of farmland, forests, gardens and greenfield land lost to housing development each year has increased by 58 per cent. So developing on the lawn will add to this loss even if it is only to develope a play park.

Lynne
Lynne
14 Jun 2018 13:08

As suggested before - perhaps thought should be given to the lawn becoming a post Brexit communal allotment and orchard.

https://www.dawlish.com/thread/details/46061 

 

(anyone started to hoard the odd can or two yet? You know, just in case..........)

Diana Mond
Diana Mond
14 Jun 2018 15:13

Increased from 2,105 hectares of land in 2013, to 3,332 hectares of land in 2017.

leatash
leatash
14 Jun 2018 16:46

As the population increases through immigration over 300,000 per year we will need more housing more roads etc etc maybe just maybe after brexit with no free movement those numbers will reduce to more managable numbers.

4 Agrees
Lynne
Lynne
14 Jun 2018 17:38

And of course us baby boomers (there are a lot of us) are living longer and under occupying empty nests. Don't forget our contribution to the housing shortage! 

And should we end up in hospital and/or care homes will there be enough staff to look after us?  

vicks
vicks
14 Jun 2018 23:37

Ok so us baby boomers (there are a lot of us) who selfishly live longer in houses that we either bought and paid for, or have occupied for decades, should move out into smaller accommodation so that the annual flood of immigrants should immediately have spacious living, without having to go through the cramped conditions that us baby boomers (so many of us) suffered initially until our hard work improved our lives. So the selfish, settled population should give up what they have worked for so that new arrivals should live in comfort from the start? LONG LIVE THE REVOLUTION COMRADES!!!

6 Agrees
Lynne
Lynne
15 Jun 2018 07:03

I wasn't saying that at all.

I was simply trying to make the point that the housing crisis is not due only to immigration. That families split up more now than in previous generations thereby increasing the demand for accommodation is another factor. 

"Today, an average of 2 people live in a property, this is significantly different to the situation in the 1950s, where an average of 5 people lived in a property. This in itself creates a massive additional strain on demand for new housing, driving the prices of the limited supply of homes higher."

From: https://www.quora.com/What-has-caused-the-UKs-housing-crisis

 

I agree that there is an issue about immigration and its impacts. But this country does need immigrants in the workforce. We have an ageing population.

The NHS is, in a way, a victim of its own success. More people now survive illnesses that not so very long ago would have seen them die off early(er). So more people are living longer than would have been the case not so very long ago.  So more people then create a greater demand for health care, housing and such like.  

Lynne
Lynne
15 Jun 2018 08:32

So here's the dilemma;

  1. Immigration. The easiest solution to an ageing population is to encourage young migrants of working age. For example, the UK has attracted many young workers from Eastern Europe. But, net migration and free movement of labour is unpopular for fears it drives down wages and places stress on infrastructure and housing demand.

Fromhttps://www.economicshelp.org/blog/8950/society/impact-ageing-population-economy/  

majorp
majorp
15 Jun 2018 10:20

So where does the pressure on demand for more housing come from? And if the demand is as great as it is made out to be, then why aren't the house builders taking advantage of it. After all, we are always told it is supply and demand, so if the demand is there, why not fulfill it?

Lynne
Lynne
15 Jun 2018 10:54

Because if demand is greater than supply, prices rise.  More profit to be made.

And also, from a political point of view, why would any political party, whose voters are mainly home owners, pursue economic policies that would see house prices fall? 

 

 

leatash
leatash
15 Jun 2018 13:44

Immigration is unpopular and thats why we are were we are goverment after goverment have failed to to deal with the problem so  at the referendum folk saw a opportunity to rectify the problem themselves and voted leave. Home ownership is at it's lowest for 30 years while the private rental market has doubled since 2004.

2 Agrees
Lynne
Lynne
15 Jun 2018 15:44

But the problem is that although immigration is unpopular, it is needed and will not stop when we leave the EU.

Already the government is lifting the Tier 2 immigration cap so that non EU doctors and nurses can come and work in this country.

leatash
leatash
15 Jun 2018 17:34

What we need is a points based system like Australia and only take what we need all immigrants should have a criminal records check and be properly vetted.

2 Agrees
Diana Mond
Diana Mond
15 Jun 2018 19:39

On a recent flight on a clear day from Exeter to Newcastle, I couldn’t help but think about this topic, whilst flying over square mile after square mile of open and unspoilt countryside. We don’t have a problem with our green and pleasant land. We really don’t. Don’t just take my word for it, the statistics prove it also. Less than 13 square miles of green space development a year is a drop in the ocean. 

 

Talking of which, I genuinely believe that we should be more worried about our oceans than our land. 

 

 

1 Agree
Lynne
Lynne
16 Jun 2018 07:42

From a quick reccy of the Australian points system is seems it is totally unsuitable for the UK. Canada, apparently, also uses a similar points system. Both countries are actively seeking to expand their populations. 

So I find it odd that those who are so vocal about the UK being 'full up' and the need to cut back on the number of migrants to this country advocate a system seemingly designed to do the precise opposite.    

 

And as I have already said there is a dilemma. Economically the country needs young migrants as we have an ageing population. However, immigration is a political hot pototoe with pressure on the politicians to bring down the numbers.

And irony of irony, should ex pat retirees in Spain and the like find their lives a tad difficult once the UK leaves the EU they may decide to come back to Blighty. Thus increasing the number of migrants to these shores and adding to the ageing population number all in one go.   

 

 

Lynne
Lynne
16 Jun 2018 08:40

@majorp - we were talking about the lack of supply of housing. i have read that developers say a reason that they cannot build new homes quicker than they do at the moment is because they do not have a big enough supply of workers with the skills required - brickies, carpenters, plasterers, sparkies and the like.

Perhaps then, if we need more homes to be built, and we don't have the skilled workers to produce them, the only solution as I can see it is that we er........import such workers.  

    Skills shortage tightens around UK construction sector - Telegraph

 
https://www.telegraph.co.uk › Business
  1.  
16 Nov 2017 - Britain's shortage of surveyors, bricklayers and other construction workers is holding back building work just at the time when the country needs ...
 

UK construction worker shortage hits record, warns trade association ...

 
https://www.independent.co.uk › News › Business › Business News
  1.  
23 Jan 2018 - Skills shortages are skyrocketing, and it begs the question: who will build ... bricklayers – which is one of the key trades in the building industry.
 

Skills shortage in the UK construction industry | Mission Critical ...

 
https://www.constructionglobal.com/mission.../skills-shortage-uk-construction-industr...
  1.  
12 Mar 2018 - The construction sector is in the grips of a skills shortage which is limiting construction activity and increasing labour costs at the same time.

Is there a skill shortage in the Construction Industry? - Agency Central

 
https://www.agencycentral.co.uk/articles/.../skill-shortages-in-construction-industry.ht...
  1.  
The UK construction sector is one of the country's leading economic drivers, ... With the skills shortage being experienced by employers across the UK, just what ...
 

RICS: Growing skills gap threatens UK construction industry ...

 
uk.businessinsider.com/rics-growing-skills-gap-threatens-uk-construction-industry-20...
  1.  
16 Nov 2017 - LONDON — Labour shortages are growing in the UK's vital construction industry, according to the Royal Institute for Chartered Surveyors.
 

Tackling the construction skills shortage - Designing Buildings Wiki

 
https://www.designingbuildings.co.uk/wiki/Tackling_the_construction_skills_shortage
  1.  
  2.  
29 Aug 2017 - Construction is a major sector of the UK economy. It generates almost £90 billion annually (6.7% of GDP) and employs in excess of 2.93 million ...
 

UK Construction Worker Shortage Hits Record High | CRL

 
https://c-r-l.com/content-hub/article/construction-worker-shortage/
  1.  
28 Mar 2018 - FMB chief executive Brian Berry said that skills shortages are ... the Uk's best interest to weaken the construction sector by implementing a rigid ...

Construction skills shortage conference debates the future of the ...

 
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/.../construction/.../construction-skills-shortage-conference-debat...
  1.  
25 Oct 2017 - Panel discussion at Skills Shortage in Construction conference ... second panel discussed the requirements of the UK construction industry for ...
 

What's causing the construction industry skills shortage?

 
https://blog.wavin.co.uk/whats-causing-construction-industry-skills-shortage/
  1.  
Research from the Federation of Master Builders shows the UK construction industry is in the midst of a skills shortage, but what's causing this downturn?
 

Wising up to the skills shortage - UK Construction Online

 
https://www.ukconstructionmedia.co.uk/features/wising-skills-shortage/
  1.  
4 Aug 2017 - The skills shortage in the construction sector is well documented, with research conducted by the Federation of Master Builders (FMB) that ...

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Lynne
Lynne
16 Jun 2018 13:48

Te dah! Here's how the migrant worker shortage will be sorted out - by prisoners!

 

Prisoners could help fill post-Brexit workforce gap, says minister ...

 
https://www.theguardian.com/society/.../david-gauke-prisoner-employment-strategy
  1.  
24 May 2018 - David Gauke launches employment strategy to improve prisoners' work ... migrant workers had been relied on to fill roles but the British public ...

Brexit news: 'Prisoners can fill the staffing gap,' says Justice Minister ...

 
https://www.express.co.uk › News › Politics
  1.  
25 May 2018 - Justice Secretary David Gauke says prisoners on day release can replace ... fill a shortfall of European migrant workers the UK quits the EU.

Government plan to replace migrant workers with prisoners 'a ...

 
https://www.fginsight.com/.../government-plan-to-replace-migrant-workers-with-priso...
  1.  
30 May 2018 - Government plan to replace migrant workers with prisoners 'a distraction' ... Justice Secretary David Gauke announced the proposal in a speech ... it might help to fill some gaps, but there are 80,000 seasonal roles to grow, ...

Prisons reform speech - GOV.UK

 
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/prisons-reform-speech
  1.  
6 Mar 2018 - From: Ministry of Justice and The Rt Hon David Gauke MP ... 'key worker' model – withprison officers spending much more time, .... Prison staff have a key role to identify and supportprisoners with .... It will take only 2 minutes to fill in. ... travel and living abroad · Visas andimmigration · Working, jobs and ...

Prisoners To Be Released After Brexit To Fill Job Vacancies - Mook ...

 
https://mooknews.com/prisoners-released-after-brexit-to-fill-job-vacancies/
  1.  
29 May 2018 - David Gauke, who has been the Justice Secretary since January, was ... “Migrant workers had been relied on to fill certain roles for too long.

Brexit, Gove, Cambs and EU workers | Ely and Soham News - Ely ...

 
www.elystandard.co.uk/news/fall-in-eu-worker-numbers-in-fenland-1-5553816
  1.  
8 Jun 2018 - The justice secretary David Gauke said prisoners could fill the roles that migrant workers had left behind. On a cautionary note the DWP said ...

How Brexit has changed the number of EU citizens registering to live ...

 
https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk › News › Plymouth News › Brexit
4 days ago - The biggest drop in new workers registering post Brexit was by those ... David Gauke saidprisoners could fill the roles that migrant workers had ...

Prison inmates could plug post-Brexit skills gap: justice secretary ...

 
https://www.personneltoday.com/.../prison-inmates-could-plug-post-brexit-skills-gap-j...
  1.  
25 May 2018 - Prisoners could play a significant role in helping bridge a post-Brexit skills gap, according to secretary of state for justice David Gauke. ... Gauke acknowledged that migrant workershad played a vital role in the economy ... the door to sectors like these, but employer will be better able to fill short-term gaps ...

Lags on day release to be paid to work in pubs, cafes and shops to ...

 
https://www.thesun.co.uk/.../lags-will-be-let-out-from-prison-to-replace-migrant-workers...
24 May 2018 - David Gauke says the scheme makes it less likely that prisoners will ... work from Category C jails to help fill a slump in migrant worker numbers ...
Missing: roles

'Ex-prisoners could help fulfil jobs demand after Brexit ...

 
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/.../exprisoners-could-help-fulfil-jobs-demand-after...
  1.  
24 May 2018 - Justice Secretary David Gauke called for a 'culture change' in how ... been aboutmigrant workers, who've made a big contribution to our economy. ... The MoJ will also look at the roleof the incentives and earned ... Plastic Surgeon Reveals: “You Can Fill In Wrinkles At Home” (Here's How)Beverly Hills MD.
 
 
 
 

 

leatash
leatash
16 Jun 2018 14:38

This has been going on for years prisoners help set up the Gloustershire county show and the three counties show so why not get them out in the fields we did it with POW's during the war so why not with prisoners of today we could have chain gangs like in the US.

2 Agrees
majorp
majorp
16 Jun 2018 20:50

As Lynne has said. "But the problem is that although immigration is unpopular, it is needed and will not stop when we leave the EU.

Already the government is lifting the Tier 2 immigration cap so that non EU doctors and nurses can come and work in this country."

If there wasn't so many immigrants, then there wouldn't need to be required - more doctors, schools and housing. Immigrants put pressure on all of us be we cannot escape from it without help from the government. But they are caught between a rock and a hard place.

Lynne
Lynne
16 Jun 2018 21:12

 

What form of help from the government do you have in mind?

leatash
leatash
16 Jun 2018 22:39

A million people every three years means pressure on our roads, schools, the NHS housing etc etc so if we are dependant on immigrant labour then first put in the infrastructure to cope. 

majorp
majorp
17 Jun 2018 08:19

Lynne, you may remember the famous speech by Enoch Powell. Well instead of the government trying to prove him wrong all of the time, show us that he was right in most of what he said.

Lynne
Lynne
17 Jun 2018 09:42

@leatash - but given that we have a shortage of construction workers where would we find them in order to construct all the infrastructure? do we really have that large a number of skilled carpenters, turners, plasterers, brickies etc banged up in our prisons? 

@majorp - yes i do remember. what bit of his speech do you particularly have in mind?  

majorp
majorp
17 Jun 2018 10:33

Lynne in answer to your reply to leatash. If there were not so many immigrants there woul be no need for more construction workers to construct all the infrastructure. We now need more of everything, but not if the demand was not there. There has to be a point in time where something has to give.

This part of his speech:-

Powell was concerned about the current level of immigration and argued that it must be controlled:

In these circumstances nothing will suffice but that the total inflow for settlement should be reduced at once to negligible proportions, and that the necessary legislative and administrative measures be taken without delay.[10]

Powell argued that he felt that although "many thousands" of immigrants wanted to integrate, he felt that the majority did not, and that some had vested interests in fostering racial and religious differences "with a view to the exercise of actual domination, first over fellow-immigrants and then over the rest of the population".[11] Powell's peroration of the speech gave rise to its popular title. He quotes the Sibyl's prophecy in the epic poem Aeneid, 6, 86–87, of "wars, terrible wars, / and the Tiber foaming with much blood".

As I look ahead, I am filled with foreboding. Like the Roman, I seem to see "the River Tiber foaming with much blood". That tragic and intractable phenomenon which we watch with horror on the other side of the Atlantic but which there is interwoven with the history and existence of the States itself, is coming upon us here by our own volition and our own neglect. Indeed, it has all but come. In numerical terms, it will be of American proportions long before the end of the century. Only resolute and urgent action will avert it even now. Whether there will be the public will to demand and obtain that action, I do not know. All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.

 

We know now there are ghetos and no go areas. If they want to intigrate, then they must aide by our laws, our way of life and not bring the bits that they believe is in the name of religion. There are many, even today only believe in sharia law and not ours.

Lynne
Lynne
17 Jun 2018 10:47

So what exactly are we talking about;

1.immigration in general?

2.Immigration from caucasian Christian EU countries?

3. Immigration from non-caucasian non Christian non EU countries? 

leatash
leatash
17 Jun 2018 10:58

Well Lynne we never used to have a problem with shortages of skilled workers they were home grown, maybe we need to turn the clock back and teach more practical subjects in school like we used to in my day. I had lessons in metal work forging, carpentry, brickwork, gardening and learnt real skills that i still use now.  Nurses didnt have to have a university education, they were trained in house in the local hospital we need to turn the clock back.

Lynne
Lynne
17 Jun 2018 10:59

“relatively high levels of immigration are part of the price you pay for a successful economy.”

“If we were to run up the draw bridge, the economy would suffer. It’s a simple choice – pure and poor, or diverse and rich.”

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11832744/Britains-economy-would-be-lost-without-immigration.html

Lynne
Lynne
17 Jun 2018 11:06

For an informative read on post 1945 immigration to the UK have a look at this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_immigration_to_the_United_Kingdom

 

Lynne
Lynne
17 Jun 2018 11:23

Japan, which has a pretty restrictive immigration policy, is suffering badly from an ageing population. How would all the immigrants leaving affect the UK’s demography?
From what we know, the effect would be to increase the problem of an ageing population. The migrant population is younger than the British population, so we would instantly become an older society with fewer young people in it. That would have serious consequences, because obviously the young are paying into the tax system and the old are generally taking out through pensions. We’d have a worse demographic time bomb situation than we have even now. That would, over time, accelerate. The foreign-born people coming into the UK, because they’re younger – and also sometimes because of the cultural factors – are having more children.

 

So how would the UK recover?
I suppose you could pass a law saying that people should have more children. It would almost get to that. You would presumably have to start framing policies that would encourage people in their fertile years to have more children than they’ve been having recently, so you’d frame the tax system to make that more advantageous. You’d also presumably try [to limit] various things, like the extent of women having careers. You'd go back to the situation where the role of women would be to produce children and not much else.

https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/vdp7pa/we-asked-an-expert-what-would-happen-if-every-immigrant-left-the-uk

 

majorp
majorp
17 Jun 2018 11:47

Well, the future to me is frightening. Technology is increasing at a rapid rate. There is already a machine picking strawberries, cars are being built by robots. Amazon has a warehouse so big, that robots have had to take over to select the goods ordered and go and collect them and place them in the right place for delivery. And there are many more jobs done by robots that we do not know about. So I think it will not be too far into the future that many jobs will dry up.

So  the immigrants in general that come here to work will not find it so easy in the future to find work.

1 Agree
Lynne
Lynne
17 Jun 2018 12:05
majorp
majorp
17 Jun 2018 12:39

In those days - which I  remember well. No washing machines, hardly any TV's, hardly any cars, hardly nothing of anything. You could leave your door unlocked only for a neighbour or two to come in and borrow something they had not got but you had. There was no such thing as burglary, because we had nothing. You could exchange your ration coupons for something you wanted for something the other person wanted.

So what did our parents do in the spare time?????????.

But now, most have got everything to do the jobs that were done by hand in my day, but today a machine will do it for me. Mobile phones are a bigger problem for the youth than they imagine. It has already been said that they are worse that taking drugs. so what will they know about life in general in a few more years down the line. They do not see now what is going on around them, so what will they know when they need to know it later?

3 Agrees
leatash
leatash
17 Jun 2018 13:41

Powel was spot on i was always a big supporter he spoke a lot of sence if only folk had listened to him.

DEEDOODLE
DEEDOODLE
17 Jun 2018 16:20

 

Well worth reading the link

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enoch_Powell

leatash
leatash
17 Jun 2018 16:51

I was only reading that link a couple of weeks ago in my opinion he was a great man the electorate were with him but those in power just couldn't see it but what he predicted will happen and probably in the not too distant future.

2 Agrees
Lynne
Lynne
17 Jun 2018 18:29

  So is it immigrants and their descendants from what is known as the New Commonwealth (ie from countries in Africa and Asia) that is the issue? For that is what Powell was talking about, wasn't it? 

majorp
majorp
17 Jun 2018 19:59

So the government is going to relax the number of immigrants. Hunt, the health and social care secretary, and Javid, the home secretary, have been privately lobbying the prime minister to ease restrictions that between November and April denied more than 2,300 doctors from outside the European Economic Area the chance to work in the NHS2,300 doesn't sound a lot, but add that to what is already allowed, and greater problems could be created. They will probably have families who will need schooling, they will need somewhere to live etc,etc.

Lynne
Lynne
17 Jun 2018 20:20

Now whilst we might want to debate why we are presently so short of home grown doctors and nurses given as how it seems we are, the shortage needs to be addressed. Other than importing them can you think of any other way of alleviating the shortage?

 

Personally if me and mine are in need of medical attention I don't give a damn about the nationality of the person(s) who provide the expertise and treatment I need.

If others feel differently perhaps they should wear a bracelet or medallion or carry documentation saying "I do not wish to be treated unless the person(s) treating me are/are not (insert nationality here).     

3 Agrees
Lynne
Lynne
18 Jun 2018 07:40

Oh and let's not forget Brexit and its negative effect on the recruitment and retention of EU national medical staff in the NHS. 

As I said at the beginning of this thread - let's hope there are enough NHS and care home staff to look after us in our old age.  Because if they aren't recruited from abroad and we haven't got enough home grown ones, then just where are they supposed to be conjured up from?

 

   

    

Lynne
Lynne
19 Jun 2018 07:53

I can only suggest to all EU citizens living in this country and who continue to live in this country post March 2019 that they keep all their papers etc in very, very, good order and learn from recent events. (read the comments below the article as well).

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/windrush-commonwealth-hostile-india-ghana-pakistan-a8404936.html

 

Lynne
Lynne
19 Jun 2018 08:53

Oh and here's the irony of irony for all those concerned about others living here who, or whose parents/grand parents, came here from commonwealth countries rather than EU ones.

I have read that during the referendum campaign Brexiteers would target Indian/Pakistani communities urging them to vote Leave as a Leave win would enable more Indians and Pakistanis to emigrate to this country. That may well have had/does have an element of truth to it. 

I would suggest that more Chinese may be also be able to come here as well as both India and China, with their burgeoning economies and expanding populations, may well demand access for their citizens to this country in exchange for our being able to trade with those two countries. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

     

burneside
burneside
19 Jun 2018 10:54

Canada and the EU now have a free trade deal, it doesn't mean citizens of EU member states can automatically live and work in Canada, or vice versa.

Lynne
Lynne
19 Jun 2018 13:13

Agreed - because that is a bilateral trade agreement between the EU and Canada.

But just because that is the situation between them doesn't mean to say that it will be same between the UK and the EU and the UK and other countries.  

 

Look here at what arch Brexiteer Jacob Rees Mogg has to say on the subject: (my emphasis in bold)

"It is thought the Cabinet has had only one high-level discussion about immigration recently, and it is said to have argued about whether preference should in future be given to workers from the EU - Poles, Spanish and French - or whether there should be a level playing field for immigrants wherever they come from.

Brexiteers like Jacob Rees Mogg back the latter approach.

"I can see no reason to give preference to people from the EU after we've left. Why should we discriminate against our Commonwealth friends, against our American friends, the very large Indian population in this country? Surely we should prioritise members of their family against people from the EU with whom we have no connection?"

But this is one more subject that looks set to get included in those endless complex Brexit negotiations. The more trade we want, the more open our borders may have to be.

One well-placed source told me that the first thing countries want to export is their people. That, incidentally, applies to India or China as well. so any new post-Brexit trade deal with them may involve hard bargaining about liberalising the immigration rules for their people who want to come here."

 

From https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43301325

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